Letās move the battlefield out of Ukraine and into Russia then.
Why would Ukraine want to take Russian land?
Not necessarily take, but a demilitarized zone might make sense, and that has to be put somewhere.
Like prevent troops amassing in āpeaceful exerciseā so they cannot surprise invade again.
Presumably parts of Russia is of strategic importance, being where they come.
Not all battles are about taking land.Sure, but implying Ukraine would want to attack its neighbouring country, to take land for any reasons seems strange. Thatās more like what Russia would do.
Since Ukraine isnāt a real country, it canāt invade another country. That would be a warcrimes.
Zelensky already said that Ukraine is willing to exchange Belgorod for NATO membership.
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But remember, itās the rest of the world thatās warmongering! Also up is down!
Come on, not even zelensky had any hope they would accept this peace plan. Theyāre basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied. The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall, the Russians have no reason at all to do this.
Pretty crumbly and porous brick wall, there. And they apparently neglected to build it around Sevastopol.
War is normally a slow process. In historical terms Ukraine is making good progressā¦ it is mostly fiction where wars are one in a couple days.
Except Israel.
There have been a lot of exceptions. However the majority of wars are longer as if you donāt think you can win surrender terms are generally better than death.
Sure, if you fight in the middle of the desert with little cover and no mud, progress is fast once you cut through the defensive lines. Vs fighting in mud and forests.
Hmm, letās just see what an actual war historian has to say about that https://www.agonmag.com/p/vlahos-ukraine-shares-same-fate-as
Western people are funny to say the least, i dont know why, if it has something to do if the fact u guys always lived in such a privileged position that u can live in a fantasy world.
Try to be pragmatic. I never said it had to be quick, I never said this is unwinnable right now, I just said that makes no sense for the Russians to accept this terms right now, and Ukrainians are not stupid, they know this. Or were u expecting putin to wake up this morning feeling bad for what he have done and just move his troops out of Ukraine?
They didnāt have any hope because Putin is a warmonger. Any āpeace planā that Russia would find acceptable would just delay the inevitable and give Russia time to build back up, theyāve already shown their cards. Russia needs to give up on its territorial aspirations and give back what itās stolen. Russia couldāve held onto Crimea even had it just not invaded Ukraine, the rest of the world had basically turned a blind eye to it (it wasnāt right, but that was the reality), instead they get to watch their military turn to dust, just like Putin will be doing within a decade.
So youāre saying Crimea is not part of Ukraine?
Iām not saying that all, but facts on the ground were that, 2014ā2022, Russia had control of Crimea and nobody was going to do anything about that for fear of getting into conflict with Russia. That Crimea even āpassedā into Russian hands without much of a fight from the international community is probably what emboldened Putin to go after the rest of Ukraine. What Iām saying is that had he stuck to just that sort of low-level āpiecemealā approach to carving out sections of Ukraine, like what was do e with Crimea, he wouldnāt have gotten nearly the amount of international backlash that he got.
Is Crimea part of Ukraine? Yes, but when it comes to international borders, facts on the ground are what matter in the long-run. Had Putin bided his time, eventually it wouldāve just been accepted as fact. Nobody else wouldāve ever cared enough to start a war over it. With Putin going for all-out-war though, heās revealed Russiaās military weakness and facts on the ground have become mutable again, giving us the chance that weāll hopefully see Crimea come back into Ukraine.
Iām not judging who is or who isnāt a warmonger or whatever, letās just be pragmatic, it makes no sense at all for Russia to accept those terms. Were u expecting the Russian Govt. to suddenly wake up one morning feeling bad for what theyāve done and just move the troops out of Ukraine, including Crimea whoās under Russian control for over a decade now, and say āsorry, my badā? This 10 point plan they āproposedā was only made so western media can say theyāre trying to stop the war, which they arenāt. And again, Iām not saying they have to stop the war, Iām just analyzing things objectively.
Iām saying Putin can stop this war right now by going home. This is all Putinsā fault supported by oligarchs. It makes complete sense for putin to accept these terms, because he will eventually be forced to.
What makes you believe we will eventually be forced? Do you still think our sanctions will make Russia collapse?
When the bombs are on his doorstep caused by his own ignorance.
So youāre cheering for WW3?
There are no oligarchs in Russia.
Words have meanings. An oligarch is someone who has political power through wealth.
Russia is an autocracy, and Putin allows people to be rich, so long as they donāt try to translate that into political power.
America has oligarchs, Russia just has rich people that contribute to an autocracy.
ā¦ Iām honestly not sure which is more evil as a political system.
I would say what is in the U.S. because there are more thorns that have to be removed from the rose.
The counteroffensive is moving forward slowly because the Russians put a ton of mines and trenches in the way. Plus they committed their best troops to stopping it. Still Ukraine is slowly moving forward in the south.
I wouldnāt want to be there right now on either side. But basically the Ukrainians are winning because their artillery is better. Once Ukraine moves their artillery within range of the highway along the Sea of Azov, the troops protecting Crimea will have their supplies threatened. This is the general plan and theyāre getting closer.
I never said this in unwinnable, but donāt make any sense to propose a peace plan to Russia right now demanding them to return all the land they occupied. Ukrainians are not dumb, they know this, this peace āproposalā is just a piece of propaganda to western media to say they are trying to start peace talks with Russia or some shit. The Russian ministry answered this out of anger but heās not wrong, the Ukraine is only getting their territory back if they can put a huge pressure on Russians, possibly only if they can manage to make Russia fear to be attacked on their own territory. And even if this happens we have to trust Russians wonāt nuke Ukraine to protect their own territory.
holy shit stop invading and leave? OUTRAGEOUS! the nerve of zelensky to ask for what is Ukraineās! I think you should go join the trenches to show how mad you are!
No, see when he says āa fairer distribution of global benefitsā that needs to start with distributing ukrainian benefits to russian oligarchs obviously!
Zelensky knowing that there wasnāt a hope in hell of Russians accepting this is false? You know it, I know it, we all know it. Itās just politics. Of course Zelensky has to offer something, even if he knows they wonāt bite.
The Russians have to claw something out of this debacle to sue for peace. And I hope the Ukrainians give them nothing, and take back the Crimea while theyāre at it.
Bad bot.
bots are at least logical
Theyāre basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied.
Yes.
I mean, if Putin doesnāt want to die, he can always gobtje fuck home. I mean he can still suck a bag of dicks and then choke on them.
Somehow I doubt that Russia will accept the outcome of the battlefield.
Thatās because you donāt understand what the outcome on the battlefield will be, but youāll see soon enough.
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Iām not saying itās not going to happen but Russia would have to attack NATO first.
No one wants to attack a nuclear power if they donāt have to.
NATO directly fighting Russian troops in Ukraine would be a big deal and quite unlikely already if it somehow got to that.
Russians need to be kicked out of Ukraine but they need to kick out Putin out of Russia themselves.
Why
Itās anti-Democratic to interfere in the politics of other countries.
And yes, the US has done it a lot, and tries to keep it hushed up because itās extremely wrong and unpopular behavior.
First, why would NATO risk escalation and bother losing troops when they can get Ukraine to do all the actual fighting?
it would only be forthcoming.
How about DC?
Whataboutism
How is that whataboutism? Do you even know what that means or are you just a liberals parrot?
Alsoā¦
This guy gets called on it enough to have a cartoon but not enough to reconsider his words.
What did I say
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āOur future is being shaped by a struggle, a struggle between the global majority in favor of a fairer distribution of global benefits and civilized diversity and between the few who wield neocolonial methods of subjugation in order to maintain their domination which is slipping through their hands,ā he said.
I mean, heās not factually wrong, just framing it in reverse. Russia is indeed trying to colonize Ukraine to maintain their dominion which is slipping through their hands. Itās just not using neocolonial methods but good old armed conquest.
And the people in favor of a fairer distribution of global benefits arenāt the people heās thinking of. I mean itās also clearly not the US, but ātaking what Ukraine has and giving it to Russian Oligarchsā is also not a fairer distribution.
You know what they say about the right: every accusation is a confession.
Whatās the difference between Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs?
Even IF ukrainian oligarchs were a problemā¦
Ukrainian oligarchs can get at ukrainian money without waging a war of aggression that causes nearly 30thousand civilian casualties.
As of right now? Armed military conquest and homophobic conspiracy theories.
If only political leader would still take their sword and fight each other on the battlefield instead of letting the armies fight for those old geezers.
Even back in those days, the leaders rarely put themselves in any danger
I would love to see Putin try to lift a sword against Zelensky
He is kicking that comedian clownās butt without a sword, even if you gave the Zionist a sword. He headed the International Judo Federation until the westerners chose with Ukraine conflict to become political and commit a cultural genocide of Russia and all Russians.
Alright Lavrov, grab a gun and get moving.
If any people deciding to go to wars had to really put their asses on the front lines the world would definitely be a peaceful place.
But as always, in both sides, only the poor working class is dying on the front line.
Those of all castes are fighting on the Ukrainian side.
Yes, of course, the working class in old western tanks and the rich and the politicians in their unicornsā¦
russia is running out of the poor though, weird who would have thought using human wave tactics would decimate a populationā¦
a view taking hold among Ukraineās allies that the war is likely to go on for years
Thatās been obvious since 2014, and since the full invasion of last year.
The battlefield isnāt even being faught on the Ukrainian side using the most cutting edge of Western technology and you want to keep fighting? Holy shit.
I would love to see that guy getting drafted and thrown into the battlefield heās bragging about.
Iād like to see that old fascist fucker on the front lines, to join the conscripts heās sending to their deaths.
I fucking hate this guyās guts. I know thatās why heās so good at his job, but I justā¦ ugh. Whenever I see his stupid face, itās like Iām getting preliminarily angry.
Iām trying to remember what language it is, it might be German or Japanese, which has a word which translates āa face badly in need of a fist.ā Thatās this guy.
German, Backpfeifengesicht. I also like āFresse wieān Lexikon: Aufschlagen, zuschlagen, nachschlagen.ā
And thatās why I will never learn Germanā¦
Itās okay, weāre aware itās hard. :-/ The compound words arenāt even the worst part, actuallyāarticles are the real killers. Those, and the fact that the grammatically correct word order changes depending on what kind of idea youāre trying to get across. Ugh.
On the other hand, English is its own can of worms. If I hadnāt learned English as my first foreign language, Iād have pulled my hair out, mostly because of the spelling.
English is a difficult language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.
Heās better spoken than any USA politician these days
Donāt you do my boy Pete like that
Trumps buddy is so brave š¤£
Oh hey, remind us what this āpeace planā is exactly?
Caps on Russian oil price, restoration of original Ukraine borders, prosecution of Russian āwar criminalsā
Itās what youād expect from a country thatās completely winning the war and not stuck in a stalemate while losing support
Yeah, itās what youād expect from a country thatās winning the war, and Ukraine is not winning the war while rapidly losing support as pretty much all western media admits now. A few recent examples for you:
- https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/08/the-hard-reality-ukraines-last-gasp-offensive-has-failed/
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/23/western-criticism-blame-ukraine-failing-counter-offensive/
- https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-poland-central-europe-eastern-kyiv-baltics-zelenskyy-war-invasion/
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-21/ukraine-zelenskiy-under-pressure-as-allies-priorities-shift
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-09-24/ukraine-offensive-against-russia-is-too-slow-for-us-uk-and-eu
I was pointing out this obvious reality to some people on reddit a few weeks ago and I was called names. Here is how I came on this conclusion: Ukrainians were saying that whoever wins the battle of Bakhmut, will win the war. Then they proceeded to lose said battle and they were announcing to the enemy āHere we go, were coming, we are going to attack at this region anytime soon, please give weapons!ā And everyone was like, āHow dare you say that they are losingā. Itās like as if everyone forgot how to think for their own
Itās been pretty surreal to watch this unfold over the past year and a half. Every single prediction the west made about the direction of the war was proven to be completely wrong. Russian economy did not collapse, Russian military isnāt falling apart, Russia isnāt running out of weapons. Western weapons arenāt game changers, stingers, HIMARS, tanks, and missiles that the west sent were all proven to be useless in changing the direction of the war.
Yet, as we see in this thread, plenty of people in the west are refusing to do any reflection on the fact that the narrative weāre being sold is demonstrably false. They just latch on to whatever new hopium story western media puts out and just keep doubling down.
I understand that in every war there is propaganda on both sides in order to keep the morale high for the ones fighting. However there seems to be the case that the ones that make policy and push the propaganda fall victims of it and are being deluded into bad strategic decisions.
Right, we have a very narrow window of accepted viewpoints right now, and anybody who voices points that that donāt fit with the narrative ends up being sidelined. This creates an echo chamber where people just repeat the same talking points to each other even if they donāt agree with them because saying anything contrary would be career ending. A great example of this is how people like Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer are now only found on substack and random youtube channels. Itās impossible to make sound decisions without honest debate and without accepting facts as they actually are as opposed to as you want them to be.
Itās deeply ironic that the west prides itself on diversity of opinions that are considered. This is supposed to be one of the core strengths of the western system compared to āauthoritarianā regimes like China. The reality turns out to be quite different.
And then we go ahead and criticize the Chinese for being authoritarian. People have not yet realized that democracy has diminished and that their so called rights are an illusion. So much for the west spreading āfreedom and democracyā
I just heard Tilly on the talking heads say that if Ukraine doesnāt prevail then there will be direct conflict between USA and Russia.
These are the people running the largest government/military in the world and Iām pretty damn sure all those Ukraine flags would disappear from peoples mailboxes when the bombs start falling in their back yards and their grandchildren are sent to die for a war no one can explain why we are in.
These people are dangerously unhinged and theyāve brought us to the brink of a nuclear holocaust. The fact that so many people in the west continue to cheer this on is frankly disturbing.
