• JASN_DE@lemmy.world
    131·
    2 months ago

    Reporting is done by users who voluntarily upload their system specs via
    # hw-probe -all -upload

    So not skewed at all…

    • KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.worldOP
      62·
      2 months ago

      Do you have a better way of measuring it?
      In what direction would voluntary self-reporting of all system specs skew the display server statistic (and why)?

    • Vilian@lemmy.ca
      12·
      2 months ago

      err, why? actually it can be skewed against wayland(wayland users tend to be more security aware), and why the suprise, KDE, GNOME are wayland from the get go, steam deck too, hyprland and sway etc

      • refalo@programming.dev
        13·
        2 months ago

        Because a huge portion of the people willing to do this are already on Wayland, but I believe there exists an even larger percentage on X that are not submitting any data.

        And another commenter said:

        We’re just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.

        • onlinepersona@programming.devEnglish
          5·
          2 months ago

          Because a huge portion of the people willing to do this are already on Wayland, but I believe there exists an even larger percentage on X that are not submitting any data.

          What is the basis for that assumption?

          And another commenter said:

          We’re just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.

          So because one cannot know which type of people submit data to the site it should be disregarded? That’s basically saying any poll or questionnaire with anonymous yet unique answers are invalid. That’s a pretty bad argument.

          Anti Commercial-AI license

      • chayleaf@lemmy.ml
        1·
        2 months ago

        by default, your content is all rights reserved, the most restrictive license possible. AI trains on “all rights reserved” content all the time. You really think adding a CC-BY-NC is gonna do anything?

    • drathvedro@lemm.ee
      1·
      2 months ago

      I just did that, why not, but it misreported my DE anyway, so I’d take the OP post with quite a grain of salt.

    • refalo@programming.dev
      34·
      2 months ago

      voluntary data tends to be pretty skewed

      Yea and a strangely (to me) large proportion of people seem vehemently opposed to apps even asking to collect usage data, which is incredibly helpful for developers, putting aside the more controversial things like privacy/marketing uses of the data.

      Personally I don’t believe for one second that Wayland has actually surpassed the install base of X11-like display servers.

        • LeFantome@programming.dev
          8·
          2 months ago

          With most of the big distros defaulting to Wayland and NVIDIA finally under control, I expect most new installs will be Wayland ( and stay Wayland ) by the end of the year. So the Linux noon numbers may be 90%. I would be surprised if Wayland does not hit 80% overall by the time we hit 2026.

  • edinbruh@feddit.it
    41·
    2 months ago

    Wait, is it on a population of 5000 computers? Bruh, why are we even looking at this?

    • jwt@programming.dev
      22·
      2 months ago

      No the sample size is ~5000, which is pretty OK if representative of the population (big if though)

      • deezbutts@lemm.ee
        24·
        2 months ago

        Given that it requires self-reporting from the command line, I feel like the people that are more likely to be on the cutting edge may be more likely to report as well

        • zarenki@lemmy.ml
          12·
          2 months ago

          To the contrary, I would expect the sample to skew more towards people who have a heavily customized X session and strong opinions about window managers while drastically underrepresenting average GNOME users who stick with the default Wayland session. Someone who likes their custom setup can still be waiting for a Wayland equivalent while casual Ubuntu users have been defaulted to Wayland on new non-nvidia installs since early 2021.

          • Joe@discuss.tchncs.de
            3·
            2 months ago

            People who voluntarily report usage are more likely to be new users, experimenting with Linux distributions etc. Greybeards like me will check out new stuff every few months or years, and won’t shout about it one way or another. We’ll probably not send statistics when prompted, either.

            • KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.worldOP
              3·
              2 months ago

              This isn’t prompted. To send your data, you have to install a cli tool and run it with 2 specific options.
              I don’t think any new users are represented in the sample.

              • Joe@discuss.tchncs.de
                1·
                2 months ago

                That indeed changes things, potentially introducing much more bias. What motivation would somebody have to install this tool and run it? Is it being marketed/advertised somehow? How, where, and to whom? :-P

                • KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.worldOP
                  2·
                  2 months ago

                  It collects system info that helps you troubleshoot, or check a computer’s compatibility with Linux.

                  It offers a switch to upload your anonymized data to the web site where it’s visualized and ordered for better readability, and also entered into the statistical analysis.

      • edinbruh@feddit.it
        1·
        2 months ago

        I doubt it’s representative of the population. Because it’s from self reporting, at best it’s representative of those who advocate their favourite platform, which is just a particular portion of the population. Though it would be cool to see Wayland surpass X

  • Fluid@aussie.zoneEnglish
    38·
    2 months ago

    Yeh, I’ll wait until the bugs are ironed out and my distro (mint) determines it’s stable. No need to start asking for troubles when everything is working smoothly.

    • demizerone@lemmy.world
      10·
      2 months ago

      Then there’s ppl like me: dual 4k with Wayland on Nvidia in Gnome with VRR. Hoorah!

      Just waiting for explicit sync and I will be complete.

          • PolarisFx@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            5·
            2 months ago

            He’s only the second person I’ve seen to claim working dual monitor on wayland with Nvidia. All my attempts have lasted 5 mins max before something drove me back to X11.

              • PolarisFx@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                2·
                2 months ago

                Dunno, I used to run 3 monitors until I got an ultra wide, now I’m down to 2. Never had any issues getting the displays to work in either. It was mostly graphical glitches and screen tearing that drove me back to X11.

                • Spectacle8011@lemmy.comfysnug.space
                  2·
                  2 months ago

                  It might be because one of my monitors is actually a graphics tablet. GNOME’s scaling just didn’t work in either session such that all three monitors were scaled correctly, but KDE’s Wayland session was able to handle it properly. Or at least, the least bad.

                  I also use Wayland because X11 had some lag when operating the desktop normally (I guess the pros call it “frame-pacing issues”?), whereas only XWayland programs will flicker for my NVIDIA GPU. And games aren’t part of that category. I don’t use a lot of XWayland applications anymore, so I actually haven’t seen the flickering for a while. The Steam client is the absolute worst, but… I’ve been doing my gaming on Windows lately 😬

      • drathvedro@lemm.ee
        1·
        2 months ago

        What about PRIME, though? I’d like to give it a shot, but I only just ironed out my setup with triple-gpu(all different vendors) and a ton of sweat, I’m afraid it’s going to be back to square one with wayland.

    • Vincent@feddit.nl
      3·
      2 months ago

      Same. I don’t see why people need to argue about it or make a conscious decision about it anyway.

      (My distro determined it was ready to use a while ago, so I’ve been switched over for a long time now. Indeed it’s working fine, and I think I hardly even notice the difference.)

  • No1@aussie.zone
    36·
    2 months ago

    Every now and then I think ‘OK, this time I surely should be able to switch over to Wayland!’

    And there’s always one application or use case that stops me.

    Yeah, I’m on nvidia which hasn’t helped either…

    • Karna@lemmy.ml
      11·
      2 months ago

      For What application you face issue? I’m curious as XWayland should provide backward compatibility.

      • brisk@aussie.zone
        5·
        2 months ago

        Electron applications are notorious and prolific, and resolutions are very specific to versions and details of the program’s build process.

        Steam can be a big old flashy boi

          • brisk@aussie.zone
            1·
            2 months ago

            There are multiple ways depending on the version of electron the app was built against

        • ElectroLisa@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          1·
          2 months ago

          +1, I have huge issues with Electron apps running on native Wayland. Fractional scaling doesn’t work, when I maximise an app it’s not covering my whole screen, same happens when manually resizing windows. What’s worse some apps do scale button positions, ex. native Discord, so when I click a button, something else to the left gets clicked. XWayland works fine though

    • Fizz@lemmy.nz
      7·
      2 months ago

      Same I want to move over so bad. It’s so smooth and the animations feel much nicer but there is always a deal breaker issue that sends me back to x11 within a few hours.

  • pelya@lemmy.world
    17·
    2 months ago

    I’ve switched to X11 last week, because kwin_wayland crashes each time my monitor enters low-power mode.

    • Kualk@lemm.ee
      2·
      2 months ago

      My intel laptop on kde is unreliable, but gnome is super stable.

      If you want windows like taskbar, you can turn it on gnome and other features that will make it more like windows.

      On desktop with AMD video card I saw no difference between kde and gnome.

      I ended up back on gnome. Because it was less distracting. I am a long time gnome user and kde was a curiosity. Latest versions of both (Arch Linux).

      • cflewis@programming.dev
        1·
        2 months ago

        Would love to know how you’re dealing with Gnome and HiDPI. I found it really wacky, massive title bars and such. Went to KDE Plasma 6 and it all looks right, but agree it seems a little wonky sometimes. I’m hoping the bugs get ironed out.

        • Kualk@lemm.ee
          1·
          2 months ago

          I don’t think my monitors are high def.

          It is simply 3440x1440.

        • Kualk@lemm.ee
          1·
          2 months ago

          Given that my monitor is HiDef, no I have no size issues in Gnome.

          KDE apps under gnome look like kde apps.

          Gnome look like gnome.

          After I installed KDE, vscode title bar got bigger.so, KDE impacted look of some apps. Not gnome itself.

  • mlg@lemmy.worldEnglish
    17·
    2 months ago

    I’m sure Nvidia will become stable on wayland by the time xfce also migrates lol

  • megane-kun@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    14·
    2 months ago

    I switched to Wayland the moment my distro went moved to KDE Plasma 6 because according to my logic: if things are going to be broken and I’m going to adjust to them anyways, I might as well do it all at once: shock therapy style.

    Plasma 6 broke a lot of my desktop customization, but that is to be expected. And Wayland? It has been surprisingly okay. I am experiencing some keyboard-related problems that I can’t even begin to track down (sometimes the keyboard flat out refuses to work for certain programs, sometimes it’s the numpad). However, I am not sure if it’s really related to Wayland, so I’m withholding judgement.

      • megane-kun@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        10·
        2 months ago

        … I actually use Arch. Sorry.

        But really, I would have gone with EndeavourOS (instead of Arch) if it were not for my friend who really strongly advocated for Arch (even installing it for me—or rather, converting my Manjaro install into an Arch one).

        If I’ve had any regrets in my Linux journey, it’s choosing Manjaro instead of EndeavourOS as my introduction to Arch-based distros.

          • sleepyTonia@programming.dev
            5·
            2 months ago

            And in my case, I kinda don’t like Endeavour OS. I installed it on my laptop to try it out a couple months ago. It looked to me like a convenient no nonsense installer for Arch with some nice defaults, then you stumble on their custom update/mirror manager nonsense. Then you want to use a printer and realize they left CUPS disabled, as if to give you an “excuse” to use systemctl. Then if you want to use Samba, you need to go out of your way to find a default config file. I’ve had to jump through more hoops and dealt with more quirky nonsense than with Manjaro stable on that distro.

            It’s like it doesn’t know who this is meant for. People who want their hand held through a GUI for something basic as updating their system, or people who love writing their own config file for everything.

            Might as well install Arch, really.

            -Other happy Manjaro user

            • Allero@lemmy.today
              4·
              2 months ago

              Exactly! That is my neverending conundrum with people going for Endeavour.

              Like, why not Arch at this point?

              Thanks for your voice!

              • Samueru@lemmy.ml
                4·
                2 months ago

                Also endeavour is not really arch with a graphical installer, or that is what I’ve seen at least.

                I tried to help someone once that installed endevouros and for some reason their kernel parameters were being overwritten every time they updated, turns out that was an issue because endeavour installed dracut instead of mkinitcpio by default? I don’t know wtf was that. They ended up switching to arch after that lol.

                Also their /efi directory was set as read-only to the root user, meaning that to even see if their kernel parameters were there they needed sudo lol

                • PolarisFx@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  3·
                  2 months ago

                  I just switched to Endeavour from Manjaro when I upgraded my hardware, and every update changes the default kernel on the selection screen. I go in and edit the file to change the default from lts to the latest kernel, and the next update switches it right back. It’s maddening, i could do Arch, and I’ve done it on other machines I just don’t have the time for that level of customization. I already waste enough time tinkering.

              • Allero@lemmy.today
                2·
                2 months ago

                Kinda hated, but not as much as Manjaro.

                Manjaro guy’s perspective - nicer than Endeavour, at least there is some functionality that is actually useful and justifies it being a separate distro.

                Normally, Arch folks hate Chaotic-AUR as part of Garuda, the bloat™, and the fact it’s heavily designed with hypergaming styling, which is not only not pleasing for many, but adds extra hurdles on the way to ricing.

            • LeFantome@programming.dev
              1·
              2 months ago

              I just installed EOS a couple of minutes ago and realized what you are saying.

              So, during install, you did not click on the box that says “firewall” ( selected by default ) and you did not click on the box that says “Printing support” ( not selected by default ). To you, that means that EOS does not know who it is targeting?

              These seem like sensible defaults. Regular users should use a firewall. Many systems will not connect to a printer.

              Clicking clearly presented checkboxes ( or leaving them as default ) at the point the installer asks you to seems pretty friendly. It is certainly a lot more friendly than having to know what pacman -S is and whatever the hell CUPS is ( I know what it is but “printing” seems a bit more newb friendly ).

              Not setting stuff up at install time and then complaining that it is not installed the way you want seems….”odd”. Also, the SAMBA packages for EOS come from the Arch repos. The experience adding packages post install is literally identical between the two distros.

              This is not a very compelling indictment of EOS.

              • sleepyTonia@programming.dev
                2·
                2 months ago

                I’m sure EndeavourOS is perfectly fine for the people who work on it and their core user base. That’s not my issue. It’s still happily running on my laptop. I just keep on seeing people say “Don’t use Manjaro, use EndevourOS! It’s much better.” But your average computer user would lose their shit at having to deal with those ^ issues. “You just had to enable it at installation if you wanted printing. You didn’t see the checkbox?! Oh mah gaaa” …Seriously? It’s not a checkbox to turn it back on if you miss it and should be opt-out to begin with. Are you going to tell me CUPs is a significant memory/storage drain and a gaping vulnerability in a residential network? If one’s not familiar with Linux, CUPS, pacman and Systemd it’s a huge headache for most people to get this working.

                I just think that EndeavourOS shouldn’t be presented as a Manjaro alternative for your average person, when it’s an opinionated Arch-based distro with spotty defaults aimed at somewhat experienced Linux users that want nitty-gritty control over their system. (Users which, again, might as well be using vanilla Arch if that’s fun or important to them) And it has some weird update/mirror manager that prevented me from just using pacman to update my system at one point and I had to figure out whatever it was they wanted me to use. Never had this kind of crap happen to me in Manjaro. Nor was printing disabled by default. Nor were network shares hard to get working.

        • LeFantome@programming.dev
          3·
          2 months ago

          Swing and a miss! Well, I can take solace in the fact that 99.9% of the packages you are using are in EndeavourOS too. So, I was mostly right. :)

          I also wish we could replace Manjaro with a green themed EndeavourOS. So many people could be saved the pain. Manjaro is the next biggest Linux honeypot after OpenOffice ( which exists only to ruin the experience for people that should have used LibreOffice instead ).

          Converting Manjaro to Arch in place is a labour of love. I have done it myself and it is was more steps than I expected it to be. Worth it though. Good friend.

          • Allero@lemmy.today
            4·
            2 months ago

            If Manjaro doesn’t work for you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for everybody

            Leave our sacred amazing green Manjaro alone!

            EndeavourOS is crap btw

            And LibreOffice has terrible UI, even if it’s feature-rich. Onlyoffice is the way to go

            Alright, enough unpopular opinions for today.

            • LeFantome@programming.dev
              2·
              2 months ago

              Once installed, EndeavourOS is literally just Arch except for perhaps a couple of optional utilities and some theming. Even the kernel is the same. So you think Arch is crap btw?

              More recent EOS installs do use Dracut. So, I guess there is one difference now ( unless you use dracut on Arch ).

              I do not mind the look of Manjaro. That is not my issue with it.

              I am fine with OnlyOffice as well. It is OpenOffice that nobody should use ( it is literally just an ancient version of LibreOffice at this point ).

              So, other than saying Arch is crap, none of your opinions from that post are unpopular with me.

              • Allero@lemmy.today
                1·
                2 months ago

                Yeah, dracut and some small differences here and there just make it more complicated to no gain, and I just don’t comprehend why would someone who installs Endeavour wouldn’t just install Arch and not depend on some random distribution that does little beyond easy set up (which has recently been shown as problematic when Endeavour team dropped ARM support).

                Arch is alright btw. It has its audience, and it serves them well. Besides, it’s an independent, but highly popular distro, which I value. It’s snappy, configurable, well-documented, and no-fuss.

                Besides, it would be weird to use Manjaro and hate its upstream. Though Mint people can experience such vibes…

                • LeFantome@programming.dev
                  2·
                  2 months ago

                  I have been pretty happy with Dracut and have moved a few other systems to it. I used the instructions in the Arch wiki for how to do that of course. Dracut ( even in EOS ) comes from the Arch repos. Takes a couple minutes.

                  EOS only moved to Dracut recently so only my newest system would be using it ( rolling updates do not change that kind of thing ). I have all my systems using it now though, including “real” Arch.

                  I am less enthusiastic about systemd-boot though it does seem faster. It is just part of my bias against systemd.

                  Regardless, I could certainly move any of my systems to whatever I want. Installing EOS and then migrating away from Dracut would be faster than installing Arch to begin with. Of course, just starting with EOS Galileo ( before the move to Dracut ) works just as well. A simple pacman -Syu brings you to the same place as a newer install.

                  Honestly, uninstalling eos-hooks from EOS to get Arch is faster than installing yay in Arch to get the AUR ( yay and paru are both in EOS by default ).

          • megane-kun@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            2·
            2 months ago

            Well, I can take solace in the fact that 99.9% of the packages you are using are in EndeavourOS too. So, I was mostly right. :)

            Yeah, also I think EndeavourOS and Arch moved to Plasma 6 at around the same time too? I tried holding off the update to Plasma 6 for a few days but finally took the update on March 12.

            I also wish we could replace Manjaro with a green themed EndeavourOS. Manjaro is the next biggest Linux honeypot after OpenOffice.

            I think with enough faffing around customizing things in KDE Plasma, I think a green-themed EndeavourOS is doable. Would I recommend it? Not really, lol! From what I’ve seen, I‌ like EndeavourOS’ default theming.

            It’s just a shame EndeavourOS isn’t as known as Manjaro (at least during the time I first jumped into running Linux as a daily driver). But then again, with Manjaro shitting the bed becoming more known, I‌ hope EndeavorOS can take the place of Manjaro as the Arch-based distro for newbies.

            Converting Manjaro to Arch in place is a labour of love. I have done it myself and it is was more steps than I expected it to be. Worth it though. Good friend.

            Oh yeah, I was there with him when he was doing it. I can’t do any help other than cheering him on, and to have another eye on the screen making sure he doesn’t make any stupid mistakes in the process. At few points, I reminded him of the fact that I’ve backed up my files, and if things really get FUBAR, we can just do a clean install and restore the files from backup.

            • LeFantome@programming.dev
              2·
              2 months ago

              EOS uses the Arch repos. So, EOS and Arch got KDE 6 together since whatever is in the Arch repos hits them both at the same time.

  • bitwolf@lemmy.one
    14·
    2 months ago

    Glad to see it finally happening. Wayland has been an amazing experience for several years

  • michel@friend.ketterle.ch
    13·
    2 months ago

    @KISSmyOSFeddit
    Hw-probe is a nice project. To buy my laptop I created an usb bootable linux that auto connectet my mobile hotspot and uploaded the report.
    I went to som shops and usbbooted their devices.
    Most shops had no problem with that.
    So I found a working convertable laptop. 👍

    What’s sad ont this linux-hardware.org website is the poor desin of this homepage.
    It is really not usable, except for your own device. But also there its difficult to analyse for certain hardware details.

    • GreenM@lemmy.world
      7·
      2 months ago

      I’m quite surprised they actually allowed to stick unknown USB into computer they will be selling to their customers 😮

  • nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br
    12·
    2 months ago

    Voluntarily uploaded data? This feels like that old linux user count site.

    I will run that probe on my machines to contribute, though.