I once applied for a job where one of the requirements was “minimum 5 to 10 years experience in X”. My friend told me to submit a CV saying I have 3 to 6 years experience in X and see if they shortlist me.
“Up to 50% off or more!”
That or when the range is so huge as to be meaningless - a $25k-150k range is completely useless.
Thankfully some states in the US have made this illegal, like Colorado.
I don’t usually complain about how people convey what they want, but this one often annoys me a bit - because it’s a matter of clarity.
Some might say “well, there’s uncertainty on the min/max”, but then the higher/lower boundary of the uncertainty doesn’t mean anything. That’s the case here - it’s effectively “minimum 5 years experience”, unless you say what would require more experience.
The higher bound is an indication of maximum salary. It’s saying “we need at least 5 years experience, but if you have 30, we’re paying you like you have 5.”
The higher bound is an indication of maximum salary.
Is this something that you know, or that you’re assuming?
Note that in both cases it only reinforces what I said about clarity. If the higher bound of the range:
- is indeed related to the salary - then it is not a requirement, nor should be listed as such
- is related to something else - are they expecting appliers to assume what the range means?
I’ve been hiring people for 10 years. Before it was common to post salaries, this was a good way to not waste people’s time interviewing for jobs below their rate.
It’s in the requirement section because that’s the section we are able to modify on the stupid Excel sheet that the recruiters force us to use.
Got it - then you know it. However it’s unreasonable to expect that the appliers should also know it*, and it still shouldn’t be listed as a requirement. (Even if the ones to blame are the recruiters, not you guys.)
*specially given that everyone is reading this stuff in a different way. You’re doing it as “preferable 10 years”, @[email protected] as “at most 10 years”, so goes on.
That’s why I’m explaining it, yes. So more people can know it.
The job hunt is like any other hobby or skill. Some bits are obvious and written down. Some bits are learned by talking to other people who have done it.
The job hunt is like any other hobby or skill. Some bits are obvious and written down. Some bits are learned by talking to other people who have done it.
This “skill” seems as relevant for most jobs as being able to read a horoscope. Sure, it’s technically a skill, but it shouldn’t be there as a “hidden requirement” on first place.
[inb4 I’m aware that you said in another comment that you aren’t “saying it’s the right way to do it.” I’m talking about the shitty approach being shitty, not blaming you.]
Talk about apologist conjecture.
I’ve hired people for a decade. I’m explaining why it’s there. I’m not saying it’s the right way to do it. Just that this is the way it’s done.
More skills and expertise = more money
I don’t agree. I’m currently looking for a developer with 5-10 years of experience. I don’t want a guy so green he’s grass, I also don’t want someone that has so much experience that he’ll be super expensive and or stuck in their ways. I want someone who knows what they’re doing, but can still learn more.
But then you say 5-10 years experience. Not minimum of 5 to 10 years.
Don’t think they have a problem to hire someone with 12 years experience for the price of 10 years
So… You missed the point entirely?
I also don’t want someone that has so much experience that he’ll be super expensive and or stuck in their ways.
In your case 10 is the maximum. There’s no contradiction, as in the OP.
IMO the “stuck in their ways” isn’t about experience at all. It’s about good or bad devs. I’ve seen green devs stuck in their ways.
Sometimes managers or devs who don’t know any better think that knowing the right thing to do is the same as being inflexible, because they don’t understand the rationale since they aren’t experienced programmers.
Most IT job postings done by recruiters are hilariously bad, I scrolled through some and I’m just like “really? That’s all you’re telling me?”
“expert knowledge in NT, FreeBSD, Cisco IOS, Java, C#, Active Directory, Windows Server, Fortinet”. Uh huh. Just be an expert at everything, I see.
Then you do the interview and they want like 2 of those things and less experience is fine. 🙄
They want the unicorn, they will settle for a horse with a horn taped to its forehead.
“…will you accept a whale that thinks it’s a unicorn?”
A job I’m interviewing for now asked me if I had experience with libvirt, qemu,and KVM.
(For those not in the know, libvirt is a wrapper around qemu, KVM is the name of the technology, so if you have experience with one or both of the first two, you definitely have experience with the last one).
man would it be nice if I could just get to the fucking interview
This is my first interview after 3 months of applying (not every day, mind you, I’ve probably applied to like 300 jobs though). I have another one in the next few days as well, for another company.
LinkedIn Premium does actually seem to help, compared to sites like Dice. Good luck out there, it’s pretty rough right now.
Recruiting is the great leveller. Those who don’t have any skills can at least make it harder for companies to hire people who do have skills.
“Minimum” in this could refer not to the number of years but to the criteria of eligibility. The sentence might mean “At minimum you have to pass the following eligibility criteria: between 5 and 10 years experience.”
If they then give other criteria that you have to match, that’s nonsense :)
Or I suppose it could mean they’re looking for someone with a minimum of five years, and while they’re not looking for someone with more than 10 years they will consider them. “We want someone with (hard minimum of 5) to (soft maximum of 10) years experience.
Is the job for someone to improve the clarity of their communications by any chance?
Your first interpretation wasn’t the case in this specific ad, because the “minimum 5-10 year experience” was on the list of “essential experience and skills” and there was a separate list of “desirables”.
Your second explanation just supports my original infuriation - just state the range that you’re interested in, without calling it a minimum.
Actually, I got that job, I’m still working for the company, but to your last point, I have to say it’s hilarious how bad our communications dept is at communicating to the rest of the company.
I think it means that if you have 10 years of experience you are welcome to apply, but they are only willing to pay commensurate to experience up to 10 years.
Probably right, and they don’t need the word minimum at all
I would have assumed that the minimum could change based on the candidates. So if they get a bunch of 10+ year candidates, any 5 year candidates would just be skipped.
I once had a colleague update a shitty webapp we had written to add a message saying “pages loading may take up to a minute or more”
Or say “an average of” and give a range.
You need an average of between 6 years.
Or just give the range.
Yeah it’s grammatically incorrect but don’t we know what they mean? They would settle for 5 years experience if they had to, but 10 years is very much preferred and if they felt they could require 10 they would.
Most neurotypical people don’t need everything to be ridigly perfect in definitions. We understand what they meant. I think the objection to this comes from the more autistic type folks. Which isn’t to say they are wrong for being different.
Eh, I am not autistic and I am bothered by a lot of language things. But I also appreciate creativity with words when it gets a point across, especially if it would take 50 more words to get across the meaning that 3 creatively combined words can also communicate.
And offer them that sweet fresh-out-of-college salary
The thing is that despite my original post I actually agree with you and quietly hate myself for being mildly infuriated by this.
I recommend you read my reply to another poster who is mildly infuriated by incorrect grammar.
I, too, am irritated by this.
Seems like a linear algebra question. Are they trying to test you on the optimal region?
That means you put it outside of the 70% who have to match.
You’d be surprised what kind of applicants you get when you don’t add that as a requirement.
OP isn’t saying not to add the requirement. They’re saying it should read “minimum 5 years”, not “minimum 5 to 10 years” which makes no sense.
Ahh. Got it. My mistake.
But - I wouldn’t be surprised actually. What I am surprised with is what kind of applicants I get even with requirements like that (although more precise) in the job ad.
It also infuriates me if the use ‘improving the optimum’ or claim something is optimal without the proof, for example ‘this is the optimal configuration of a production system’ after a comparison of 2–3 different variants.
Let me tell you about monitoring and alerting, son…