In Texas, where doctors face up to 99 years of prison if convicted of performing an illegal abortion, medical and legal experts say the law is complicating decision-making around emergency pregnancy care.
Although the state law says termination of ectopic pregnancies is not considered abortion, the draconian penalties scare Texas doctors from treating those patients,
The future that conservatives have designed for us. Project 2025 would have us all live in this awful version of America
I think it is interesting that southern Republican states think they are “pro-life” when they have traffic fatality rates 10x higher than countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Icelans, Japan, Korea, etc and yet they get so angry whenever progressives question their pickup size or talk about saving lives through safer road design and better urbanism.
Anyone that fights against vaccines or safer road design and smaller vehicles is NOT pro-life: they just hate women.
You’re Breaking the Law: Abortion Edition
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Treating a woman during a miscarriage: ILLEGAL
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Turning a woman away at the door of the ER because you’re afraid of civil liabilities: PERFECTLY FINE
The Pro-Life Party, folks.
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You have to look at it from the doctor’s point of view.
Trying to explain this to a woman dying of blood lose on the floor of an emergency room.
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But what about his other patients?
I don’t think they want to be left on the ER bleeding out either. In theory, that means coming together as a community to reject this horrific policy. In practice, it appears to be looking the other way and feeling #Blessed that you’re not the one doing the suffering.
What happens if you’re one of the only, if not the only OB/GYN in an underserved rural area?
I actually heard about a surgeon out in Beaumont, TX who used to race his Lamborghini up and down I-35. That section of the road is swarming with police, but any time he got clocked the police would pull him over and politely give him a warning. That’s because he had a reputation for saving lives - particularly cop lives - any time they’d get injured on the job and wheeled in to the ER.
If you’re the only doctor in town who can safely deliver a baby (and you don’t suck at your job) you are going to enjoy not an insignificant amount of political clout. You’re absolutely the person who is in the best position to defiantly act against this kind of law, because you’ve got the leverage by being the person with the skills to do the job.
But if you’re not willing to stand up, why on earth would you expect anyone else to do it?
There is no good answer.
The good answer is to save the life in front of you and go on from there.
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You don’t think they would if they could?
I think they would rather avoid an immediate conflict with their own managers and the more zealous members of the community than to take any amount of personal risk to their careers. And, as a result, they are leaving an uncountable number of people to suffer and die, because they no longer have any confidence in the American medical system.
the costs associated with making that choice
The costs associated with not making the choice rack up every time good people refuse to act.
Tell that to the family of every woman that suffers as a result of not getting the care
If we’re serious about delivering care to every woman that needs it, we can expand Medicaid to cover everyone without insurance and have the DOJ step in to provide legal aid to any doctor caught in the legal crossfire.
This isn’t just a problem of doctors. Its a political problem as well. But the doctors are the people on the front lines. If they are too terrified to even make the attempt to deliver services to people in need, no woman is safe and the volume of untreated patients will continue to balloon.
It’s an age old thought experiment
So much so that its practically a joke.
But the solution to the trolley problem is to stop the trolley, not to console yourself by driving down a track where you can’t see as many people.
You’re agreeing that this is a political problem, but you’re still putting the impetus and responsibility on the physician in that situation. If we’re using the trolley problem as an example, the person holding the switch to choose between the 5 people in harm’s way, or actively switching it to one person who currently isn’t in harm’s way…the switch just changes the track direction. That person doesn’t have access to brakes, or a “derail” option. The physician in that situation has to choose between actively leaving one person in harm’s way, or allowing many people to suffer down the line.
Personally, I don’t have kids, I’m not going to have kids, and it’s just me and my husband. I don’t have a whole family of lives to ruin by getting into legal trouble by running afoul of this, but I don’t blame the physicians who do have a lot to lose. Also, I know enough about the legal system and how medical documentation and coding work to make it tough for the hypothetical prosecutor to pin things on me. Hell, I’m still a student and I’m thinking up ways to play this horrible game they’ve set up, and I think some of my solutions will be pretty clever if I ever have to use them. I will not be sharing any of those ideas, but I have quite a few of them.
You’re agreeing that this is a political problem, but you’re still putting the impetus and responsibility on the physician in that situation.
The physician who engages with these laws becomes a political actor. Medical centers don’t have a political commissar sitting around enforcing the party line, they’ve got civilian staff and administration. The choice they make in enacting or ignoring these laws is a political one.
The physician in that situation has to choose between actively leaving one person in harm’s way, or allowing many people to suffer down the line.
The physician makes the choice of who to save in the moment, and then private administrators, local law enforcement, and courts decide how many people suffer down the line.
I will not be sharing any of those ideas, but I have quite a few of them.
More power to you. But whatever you do (or refuse to do) is as political a decision as anything your bosses and local government enact above you.
That’s horrible and unjust. But it doesn’t invalidate everything else. That poor woman is understandably looking at it from her perspective, which doesn’t give a damn about what comes next. Part of medicine and medical policy is making difficult decisions. Let’s look the other direction where what the government has done isnt evil.
The opioid epidemic has been devastating. Recently, they’ve restricted prescribing of opioid to surgeons and pain specialists instead of everyday physicians. When my back goes out and I can’t make it to the toilet do you think I care about the big picture? I’ve never had issues with opiod abuse and use them just as pain killers to get me through the worst of it. I always need up with most of my prescription expiring.
But my individual suffering is less than the societal cost of easy access to opioids.
With this insane abortion law, it’s clear the state is in the wrong, but the doctors have to look at the impact of their decisions. The doctors want to help that poor woman. It’s the easy, satisfying thing to do in the moment. But if the outcome is fewer people receiving medical treatment is it a net positive.
Maybe?
It really depends on the rate at which this is happening and whether the doctors would actually win at court.
That’s the security guard’s problem
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Alternatively, we could not have laws that jail doctors from doing the right thing.
The real coward’s choice would be to simply leave the state. These laws are absolutely draconian and awful and there are no good choices.
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That’s not cowardice, it’s pragmatism.
Honestly we should have a constitutional amendment that “congress nor the states shall make no law to prevent people from obtaining a medical procedure if they cannot show it is worse than not undergoing the procedure for the person seeking care.” This would also pre-empt trans healthcare bans, as a plus.
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Uh, ok.
So, is this you saying that you will put your freedom and your family at risk to help someone?
To be clear, I am a third year medical student that wants to go into emergency medicine, and I’m already looking for ways to challenge this kind of bullshit to protect my patients. Thankfully, I live in a state that has actually set itself up as a refuge for reproductive healthcare (Minnesota), but I’d just get more creative about it if I lived somewhere else.
I’ll put my money where my mouth is…would you? I want an actual, honest answer that takes your own life and situation into consideration.
Why haven’t you flown down there to help? Because you’re a coward?
It’s the trolley problem made manifest. Help one person and possibly kill a dozen others, or let one person probably die so that you can possibly help more.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, and regardless of which you choose, you’re the monster. This is exactly what Republicans want. Either these doctors risk everything to save these women, or they try to help everybody else and get hate from people like you. That anger would be better spent on the people who put these laws into place and the people who voted for them and support these draconian laws.
What oath? The hippocratic oath? The unenforced and unenforceable oath that’s actually meaningless?
If it’s meaningless to you, I understand your willingness to kowtow to fascists and their policies.
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I mean, I get it, but you know as well as I am that they are going to keep slicing the salami. How many women are you willing to let die, to make die, before you say enough?
I’ve never had to think less about blocking someone.
You do realize that the traditional Hippocratic and Osteopathic oaths forbid abortions, right? A lot of physicians adhere to more modern versions, but if you’re going by the traditional Hippocratic oath, you’re just talking out your ass about something you don’t actually understand the context and consequences of.
Edit: It appears that I should clarify some things. I do not agree with the original Hippocratic or Osteopathic oaths. I refuse to take them, and have instead written my own for myself and my firmly held beliefs. Abortion and euthanasia are expressly forbidden by the original oaths, and there are still quite a few physicians that point to those oaths to excuse themselves from violating conservative religious beliefs on those topics. I support the right to abortions, and the right to die with dignity. It’s still important to recognize that the original oaths that many physicians (old and new) ascribe to forbid these, and that they will use those oaths as an excuse to violate patients’ rights in favor of their own beliefs.
Cowardly to protect more lives by remaining a doctor? Cowardly to not throw his life into chaos to help people who statistically probably voted for this new paradigm or didn’t bother voting at all? How about primary elections where turnout is 10%? He’s supposed to martyr his life to help Idiocracy win? Decades of top scores and academic rigor should be eager to die?
No. I don’t think doctors are the cowards here. I think this is the situation that people voted for. This is where apathy has taken us.
Republicans doing their best to make life a living hell for women. Job well done.
The political party that can’t even decide what a woman is.
What a bunch of weirdos.
Although the state law says termination of ectopic pregnancies is not considered abortion, the draconian penalties scare Texas doctors from treating those patients
This. The same thing is happening in Poland. Doctors don’t want to risk going to jail, so you might die, because politicians decided to make decisions for the doctors to appeal to the “Taliban”.
Then they are surprised the population is on decline and people are afraid to have kids.
If they really wanted to solve the demographic problem, they should stop stalking from the citizens and do everything to help middle class to prosper. People won’t have kids, if they can barely survive themselves and now they can even die.
As you can check by my comments history I’m not an usual US hater. But here, I must admit this country is a professional shitshow.
When a state used to have maternal outcomes similar to a developing nation’s, then passed some new laws and it got worse, I’d say shitshow is too mild.
This is what happens when a political party decides it knows more than doctors. Really pisses me off
You’re giving them way too much credit. They’re not playing doctor, they’re playing “Christian Autocrat” and near-death pregnancies are just the price of doing business.
So prolife, really, killing and terrifying pregnant women who are bleeding.
Each day we move closer to Texas being in play.
Could have codified Roe, but keeping the filibuster intact was and will always be Senate Democrats’ highest priority.
Given that every Republican was against codification, it only takes having a few Democrats against it to block such a move. Even as a majority of Democrats were in favor, at no time was a majority of the Senate
Oh stop making excuses for the Jim Crow Filibuster.
Democrats had the seats and just enough no votes. Because they ALWAYS find the no votes.
Children being forced to carry rapists’ offspring to term was the price that they were delighted to pay to keep their procedural excuse for inaction.
I’m not “making execuses” for it — I’m pointing out the reality that the votes to end it haven’t been there, and how that happened.
We gave Democrats the means to codify Roe.
They chose to save the filibuster instead. They always do and always will.
You’re lumping the whole group together, which isn’t a good way to describe what happened when 50 Republicans wanted to block and somewhere around 3-5 Democrats out of 50 wanted to.
Democrats expect greater lockstep than that from their voters.
So you’re mostly interested in trolling and blaming Democrats as a group rather than electing enough willing Democrats to actually change things.
Then you make them vote and you primary the fuck out of them.
Funny how everyone in the senate seems to forget how to politic when it suits them.
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https://apnews.com/article/pregnant-women-emergency-room-ectopic-er-edd66276d2f6c412c988051b618fb8f9
