Biden’s numbers among young voters have slid during his presidency from the high margins that helped him beat Trump. Several former supporters explain why.
As much as I actually hate to say this because it’s the reality of the US, the support of Israel genociding the Hamas would’ve happened regardless of whomever was President. The US has given a ton of support to Israel in the past and we’re considered good allies with them, so we would have probably let the genocide slide no matter what.
Do you think Trump wouldn’t be for this or something? Or Hillary? Don’t go all “gEnOcIdEr JoE” because you think this would’ve only happened with Biden - this would’ve happened because we are America.
You mean like when he won the primary against Bernie, even though Bernie was actually more popular? The primary is only part of the picture–the other is the party apparatchik that gets its pick no matter what.
I don’t think they said anything about who they’re voting for in 2024, you’re just being an ass.
Plus, their vote only matters if they live in a purple state, otherwise the backwards way the US conducts elections means their vote is worthless.
I live in a blue state. I could vote for Trump and rest assured it doesn’t even matter. I could vote for Mickey Mouse, it doesn’t matter, the state electorate goes Blue. In a way, this makes me lucky, because I don’t have to vote for the sack of worthless crap Biden is.
If you think presidential elections are the ones that matter for an individual to take part in, you’re already disenfranchising yourself better than any gaslighting about Democrats could ever.
Joe’s not good, but not voting for him IS a vote for fascism. Period. Republicans don’t need good opposition to never the less be completely undeserving. Since we LITERALLY CANNOT pick outside of the two choices, you literally have a forced choice between fascism and shitty Democrats.
Buddy, at a presidential level, it doesn’t matter if an individual votes red or blue in VT. It goes Blue. Their impact is utterly irrelevant.
And the DNC will never run a decent candidate with any intent to make fundamental changes to benefit the common person because they can always fall back on the kind of thinking you’re showing here to ensure nothing will change. And they have no motivation to, either. They maintain power just fine by doing the bare minimum of not being quite as repugnant as the Republicans, while still being utter bastards.
Anyway, this kind of attitude is exactly what makes the vote blue no matter who people insufferable fools. Neither I nor the first person you replied to said anything about who their voting for, they simply expressed displeasure with utter dogshit choices we have. Fuck, it seems we even agree that Biden sucks. And yet you lept on them to call em a fascist for not liking Biden.
Another person in this thread said I should be literally crucified for not liking Biden.
It’s hard to understand why some people might be turned off by that kind of thinking, isn’t it?
I don’t understand what you’re proposing Trump would do that would fail. Giving Israel more money, weapons and the go-ahead to 100% kill everyone (which is NOT what the Biden admin has done) or shelling Gaza from boats and bombing them ourselves has nothing to do with Trump personally being intelligent. In fact, it’s what he would surely do since he’s a moron.
Biden is playing a delicate game where he supports Israel without provoking all of the other countries in that region or alienating allies.
Trump wouldn’t give a shit. That could be disastrous for Israel, because contrary to the propaganda they aren’t actually strong enough to fight everyone everywhere all at once. Not even with Trump’s help. Also, he’s just as likely to get bored or give up on Israel when things get difficult.
So better to vote in the guy who will make the US fascist, make it worse for its citizens, and most likely bully and potentially cause more death with its huge army in order to possibly maybe potentially help another country by fucking up?
Even if you’re not a US citizen, that’s some insane mental gymnastics to do in order to somehow be braindead about this genocide being Biden’s fault and try to frame it as if nobody else would or could have let this go as far as it has if they were the US President. And if you are a US citizen living in the US, you do realize you would be living in a Trump-run America? Legitimately, are you okay with actually making another country’s situation maybe slightly better at the expense of your own living conditions??
You are, of course, free not to vote for him. If you really are a queer communist though, then good fuckin’ luck with what’s in store for you 2024-2028 if Trump wins.
What about what’s in store for me if Trump loses? The rightwing still control the Supreme Court and can still win a majority in Congress and will still control my state on all three levels of government. Biden isn’t protecting me from any of that shit. That would violate the norms!
Meanwhile, he’s supporting an ongoing genocide!
If I wanted to cast a vote that would matter in 2024 I’d cast a 9mm ballot with my temple as the ballot box.
Trump would gladly send troops over to assist in the genocide. Biden is doing too little to address it and being too supportive of it. There’s a massive difference. It’s going to happen regardless of which of them wins. It will be better under Biden 100%. To claim otherwise would be feigning accelerationism. Hoping to get millions more killed so that something might change here at home.
If we’re at the point where we’re playing an ethics logic puzzle between different levels of genocide then it’s time to do something different!
If you vote for Biden, you are voting for genocide. You are endorsing children being blown apart and buried under rubble. You are endorsing doctors and nurses and journalists being sniped and bombed. You are endorsing the use of starvation as a weapon. You are sending a message to the government that you want genocide and you will support more genocide, and that’s exactly what you’ll get under Biden.
America is an abomination. At this point you don’t even get to vote for the lesser of two evils. You just vote for different branding.
Cringing as I quote a fictitious asshole who has a point. “Your boos mean nothing. I’ve seen what makes you cheer.”
Your criticisms are hollow. ML kvetching over Biden’s shit take. Calling him a monster for saying the wrong thing over something he really couldn’t impact much personally. While hand waving away the millions oppressed and slaughtered by ML governments. It’s hypocritical.
There’s almost no nation in the world that isn’t an abomination. Especially the biggest ones. China, India, Russia and yes the US are all abominations.
Everyone needs better. And yeah Biden is definitely flawed. Despite being one of the best presidents the US has had in nearly 40 years. Ironically you of all people should appreciate that he singularly is one of the biggest reasons we have marriage equality. His administrations NLRB decisions truly a sea change. Pushed to invest in national infrastructure that everyone needs in a scale not really seen since the new deal. But yeah, old man tone deaf, gotta go.
It’s honestly too late right now to start pushing for better this cycle. They are seriously ready to put in place a fascist dictator. I know ML are 100% on board with dictators. But I think you would be concerned by the fascism part. Right now we need to survive and hold on to any type of democracy or republic we can. After 2024 we can focus on better younger Democrat candidates for 2028. But we have to remember good change comes incrementally and slowly with compromise.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m open to any ideas for positive change you have that don’t involve magical thinking. Such as what if everyone did the thing that everyone doesn’t do. Or the typical conflict resolution ML employ. You get a gulag and you get a gulag disappearing and re-education for you and for you as well! Yadda yadda.
Marxist Leninist. Most of those we mistakenly call Communist simply because Lenin and co chose it as the name for their authoritarian party. They realistically reject a lot of the basis of communism. And similarly, Marxist leninists reject a good chunk of the philosophy of Karl Marx. Misinterpreting the intellectual philosophical statement of a dictatorship of the proletariat. Something which on it’s face is contradictory and oxymoronic. As being a literal commandment to them. From a man who knew all too well the problems of actual dictatorial power and had spent most of his life fleeing from country to country trying to avoid it. Marxist Leninist are to Marxism what evangelicals today are to Christianity.
I can’t think right now of the actual country the .ML domain refers to. But Lemmy.ML and Lemmygrad.ML both use it as a reference to that ideology.
Marxist leninists reject a good chunk of the philosophy of Karl Marx.
Because Marx is a racist antisemite whose writing is dripping with speciesism. He was right about one thing and that was his economics, I severely distrust anyone who listens to him for anything other than that, especially not when there’s a treasure trove of other writings.
Really if they called themselves what they are (Scientific Socialists) they would be way more popular among the average American. The reason they don’t is because of the nostalgia of MLs turning one of the biggest shithole countries into a global superpower overnight.
And if you don’t vote for Biden, then you are voting for children in cages and people being pushed under buoys in rivers as they try to escape whatever hellhole they left.
LOL you’re delusional. Biden is provided typical support for the country in the way of supplies and money. Trump would send the actual US military over.
“What about what’s in store for me if Hitler loses? The Nazis still control Brest, Lwow, and Kaunas, and Churchill isn’t protecting me from any of that shit. Meanwhile, he’s an open racist who supports atrocities in the colonies.”
Yes, I do understand your argument. You don’t need to repeat it. I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
I know two separate people whose life situations changed dramatically because of Obama-era immigration policies. If they were hostile to Obama because of drone strikes and warrantless wiretapping, I’d point out to them that yes, fair enough, but they could also be deported right now from a Bush or Romney America if things had gone a little differently. And Trump is much, much worse than Bush or Romney. He’s dangerous to people who aren’t even queer or communist.
I think you’re being similarly foolish and contrarian about it. But of course you’re free to think whatever you want, I won’t keep going back and forth with you about it.
I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
And your argument seems to be that you shouldn’t participate unless at least one truly perfect candidate is available. But not participating means that the worse of the two evils wins. So you’re, unironically, hostile to your own individual safety.
I believe he would have responded roughly the same.
I also believe he would have fumbled the delicate balance Biden is trying to strike, where he has been able to protect and support Israel without provoking a wider conflict. Trump isn’t exactly a strategic statesman. Under Trump, Israel would have found itself facing total isolation from the West and a rapidly escalating conflict with all of its neighbors in the region. Whether that would result in Israel backing down with their tail between their legs or WW3 is hard to say.
I’m not voting for Trump, though. I don’t want either Biden or Trump. I want to kill myself. At least that way my vote counts.
Dunno, it’s a year away, why call my shot now when I don’t have all the information yet? But if I voted today and it was Biden v Trump and no competitive 3rd party, it would be an easy blank on the presidential section.
But that’s a hypothetical, we’ll see if Biden aligns more with me in voting day, I can only assume he will double down on trying to seduce disenfranchised Republicans so I’m not hopeful.
I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he’s supporting genocide.
As much as I actually hate to say this because it’s the reality of the US, the support of Israel genociding the Hamas would’ve happened regardless of whomever was President. The US has given a ton of support to Israel in the past and we’re considered good allies with them, so we would have probably let the genocide slide no matter what.
Do you think Trump wouldn’t be for this or something? Or Hillary? Don’t go all “gEnOcIdEr JoE” because you think this would’ve only happened with Biden - this would’ve happened because we are America.
So you’re just going to vote for open fascism this time? Only an evil person votes for the greater evil or allows a greater evil to win.
I dunno man, its either Light Fascism or The End of the USA. It’s a hard call only negated (to me) by being in a fucking red state.
If Biden got Primaried he absolutely would lose.
You have a lot more faith in voters than I do. If Biden got primaried we’d get the same milquetoast liberal we’ve always gotten.
He’d be younger, at least, as it would almost certainly be Newsom.
I don’t see how he’d be that different from Biden, but he’d be nicer to look at.
He’s not anti-abortion, for one
You mean like when he won the primary against Bernie, even though Bernie was actually more popular? The primary is only part of the picture–the other is the party apparatchik that gets its pick no matter what.
I’m sure you have strong evidence of this, with how confident you are?
He is getting primaried, technically speaking.
Why is the end of a fascist state a “hard call?”
I don’t think they said anything about who they’re voting for in 2024, you’re just being an ass.
Plus, their vote only matters if they live in a purple state, otherwise the backwards way the US conducts elections means their vote is worthless.
I live in a blue state. I could vote for Trump and rest assured it doesn’t even matter. I could vote for Mickey Mouse, it doesn’t matter, the state electorate goes Blue. In a way, this makes me lucky, because I don’t have to vote for the sack of worthless crap Biden is.
If you think presidential elections are the ones that matter for an individual to take part in, you’re already disenfranchising yourself better than any gaslighting about Democrats could ever.
Joe’s not good, but not voting for him IS a vote for fascism. Period. Republicans don’t need good opposition to never the less be completely undeserving. Since we LITERALLY CANNOT pick outside of the two choices, you literally have a forced choice between fascism and shitty Democrats.
Buddy, at a presidential level, it doesn’t matter if an individual votes red or blue in VT. It goes Blue. Their impact is utterly irrelevant.
And the DNC will never run a decent candidate with any intent to make fundamental changes to benefit the common person because they can always fall back on the kind of thinking you’re showing here to ensure nothing will change. And they have no motivation to, either. They maintain power just fine by doing the bare minimum of not being quite as repugnant as the Republicans, while still being utter bastards.
Anyway, this kind of attitude is exactly what makes the vote blue no matter who people insufferable fools. Neither I nor the first person you replied to said anything about who their voting for, they simply expressed displeasure with utter dogshit choices we have. Fuck, it seems we even agree that Biden sucks. And yet you lept on them to call em a fascist for not liking Biden.
Another person in this thread said I should be literally crucified for not liking Biden.
It’s hard to understand why some people might be turned off by that kind of thinking, isn’t it?
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No, I’m voting for Hillary Clinton. It’s still her turn!
This is the ultimate troll against liberals and I’m here for it.
You’re a moron.
How many thousands of Palestinian children do our bombs have to murder before you reconsider voting for genocide?
Getting Trump elected will make it worse. There’s no way in hell republicans would have a better policy on Palestine.
Trump is also extremely stupid. A better policy on Palestine is one that fails, and Trump is more likely to fuck this up.
I don’t understand what you’re proposing Trump would do that would fail. Giving Israel more money, weapons and the go-ahead to 100% kill everyone (which is NOT what the Biden admin has done) or shelling Gaza from boats and bombing them ourselves has nothing to do with Trump personally being intelligent. In fact, it’s what he would surely do since he’s a moron.
Biden is playing a delicate game where he supports Israel without provoking all of the other countries in that region or alienating allies.
Trump wouldn’t give a shit. That could be disastrous for Israel, because contrary to the propaganda they aren’t actually strong enough to fight everyone everywhere all at once. Not even with Trump’s help. Also, he’s just as likely to get bored or give up on Israel when things get difficult.
This is a horrifying viewpoint which is effectively pro-genocide. More genocide, and faster too.
So better to vote in the guy who will make the US fascist, make it worse for its citizens, and most likely bully and potentially cause more death with its huge army in order to possibly maybe potentially help another country by fucking up?
Even if you’re not a US citizen, that’s some insane mental gymnastics to do in order to somehow be braindead about this genocide being Biden’s fault and try to frame it as if nobody else would or could have let this go as far as it has if they were the US President. And if you are a US citizen living in the US, you do realize you would be living in a Trump-run America? Legitimately, are you okay with actually making another country’s situation maybe slightly better at the expense of your own living conditions??
Why do you want Trump to win? Because that’s what you are arguing for here.
Lets fucking Pokemon gooo to the polllllsss!!
This is honestly pretty funny. IDK if you’re trolling with your other messages or not but this one is funny.
You are, of course, free not to vote for him. If you really are a queer communist though, then good fuckin’ luck with what’s in store for you 2024-2028 if Trump wins.
What about what’s in store for me if Trump loses? The rightwing still control the Supreme Court and can still win a majority in Congress and will still control my state on all three levels of government. Biden isn’t protecting me from any of that shit. That would violate the norms!
Meanwhile, he’s supporting an ongoing genocide!
If I wanted to cast a vote that would matter in 2024 I’d cast a 9mm ballot with my temple as the ballot box.
I want to cast a 9mm ballot every single time there’s an election and all the “left” party wants you to do is vote in their fascist.
Trump would gladly send troops over to assist in the genocide. Biden is doing too little to address it and being too supportive of it. There’s a massive difference. It’s going to happen regardless of which of them wins. It will be better under Biden 100%. To claim otherwise would be feigning accelerationism. Hoping to get millions more killed so that something might change here at home.
If we’re at the point where we’re playing an ethics logic puzzle between different levels of genocide then it’s time to do something different!
If you vote for Biden, you are voting for genocide. You are endorsing children being blown apart and buried under rubble. You are endorsing doctors and nurses and journalists being sniped and bombed. You are endorsing the use of starvation as a weapon. You are sending a message to the government that you want genocide and you will support more genocide, and that’s exactly what you’ll get under Biden.
America is an abomination. At this point you don’t even get to vote for the lesser of two evils. You just vote for different branding.
Always has been.
Functioning as designed.
Cringing as I quote a fictitious asshole who has a point. “Your boos mean nothing. I’ve seen what makes you cheer.”
Your criticisms are hollow. ML kvetching over Biden’s shit take. Calling him a monster for saying the wrong thing over something he really couldn’t impact much personally. While hand waving away the millions oppressed and slaughtered by ML governments. It’s hypocritical.
There’s almost no nation in the world that isn’t an abomination. Especially the biggest ones. China, India, Russia and yes the US are all abominations.
Everyone needs better. And yeah Biden is definitely flawed. Despite being one of the best presidents the US has had in nearly 40 years. Ironically you of all people should appreciate that he singularly is one of the biggest reasons we have marriage equality. His administrations NLRB decisions truly a sea change. Pushed to invest in national infrastructure that everyone needs in a scale not really seen since the new deal. But yeah, old man tone deaf, gotta go.
It’s honestly too late right now to start pushing for better this cycle. They are seriously ready to put in place a fascist dictator. I know ML are 100% on board with dictators. But I think you would be concerned by the fascism part. Right now we need to survive and hold on to any type of democracy or republic we can. After 2024 we can focus on better younger Democrat candidates for 2028. But we have to remember good change comes incrementally and slowly with compromise.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m open to any ideas for positive change you have that don’t involve magical thinking. Such as what if everyone did the thing that everyone doesn’t do. Or the typical conflict resolution ML employ. You get a gulag and you get a gulag disappearing and re-education for you and for you as well! Yadda yadda.
Liked your comment. What is “ML”, though?
Marxist Leninist. Most of those we mistakenly call Communist simply because Lenin and co chose it as the name for their authoritarian party. They realistically reject a lot of the basis of communism. And similarly, Marxist leninists reject a good chunk of the philosophy of Karl Marx. Misinterpreting the intellectual philosophical statement of a dictatorship of the proletariat. Something which on it’s face is contradictory and oxymoronic. As being a literal commandment to them. From a man who knew all too well the problems of actual dictatorial power and had spent most of his life fleeing from country to country trying to avoid it. Marxist Leninist are to Marxism what evangelicals today are to Christianity.
I can’t think right now of the actual country the .ML domain refers to. But Lemmy.ML and Lemmygrad.ML both use it as a reference to that ideology.
Because Marx is a racist antisemite whose writing is dripping with speciesism. He was right about one thing and that was his economics, I severely distrust anyone who listens to him for anything other than that, especially not when there’s a treasure trove of other writings.
Really if they called themselves what they are (Scientific Socialists) they would be way more popular among the average American. The reason they don’t is because of the nostalgia of MLs turning one of the biggest shithole countries into a global superpower overnight.
OH lol I am actually on the ML lemmy too and didn’t realize what it was. Thanks for the education.
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And if you don’t vote for Biden, then you are voting for children in cages and people being pushed under buoys in rivers as they try to escape whatever hellhole they left.
LOL you’re delusional. Biden is provided typical support for the country in the way of supplies and money. Trump would send the actual US military over.
Now tell me, which is worse?
“What about what’s in store for me if Hitler loses? The Nazis still control Brest, Lwow, and Kaunas, and Churchill isn’t protecting me from any of that shit. Meanwhile, he’s an open racist who supports atrocities in the colonies.”
Like I say: Good luck.
Biden is supporting genocide! No matter who I vote for, Hitler wins.
This isn’t fascism vs social democracy. This is Hitler Lite vs Hitler Delux.
Such a clueless take when Trump is calling for genocide IN THE US.
I will not vote for the lesser of two genocides.
You sound like someone who is hungry but won’t take my food because they want better food.
More accurately, someone who doesn’t want other hungry people (in addition to herself) to have any food because she wants better food.
Why the fuck not?
When you vote for the lesser of two genocides, you are voting for genocide. You can’t escape that.
Yes, I do understand your argument. You don’t need to repeat it. I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
I know two separate people whose life situations changed dramatically because of Obama-era immigration policies. If they were hostile to Obama because of drone strikes and warrantless wiretapping, I’d point out to them that yes, fair enough, but they could also be deported right now from a Bush or Romney America if things had gone a little differently. And Trump is much, much worse than Bush or Romney. He’s dangerous to people who aren’t even queer or communist.
I think you’re being similarly foolish and contrarian about it. But of course you’re free to think whatever you want, I won’t keep going back and forth with you about it.
Liberals: “You need to vote for Biden or Trump will kill all the gay communists”
Gay communists: “Don’t vote for genocide Joe, it’s the minimum I expect of you”
Liberals: “I don’t care. If Biden loses I’m not going to be able to go back to brunch”
I won’t vote for genocide just to protect myself.
At some point you have to find something that you value more than your own individual safety.
Ah yes, all those people who will be safer under a Trump presidency. I forgot about them. How careless of me.
The genocide in Gaza is going to continue regardless of which candidate wins. I understand that.
But if I vote for Biden, I am voting for genocide. I won’t do that just because it might be personally better for me if Biden wins.
(might be personally better for me - who fucking knows what the Supreme Court might decide in the next 4 years)
And your argument seems to be that you shouldn’t participate unless at least one truly perfect candidate is available. But not participating means that the worse of the two evils wins. So you’re, unironically, hostile to your own individual safety.
Nope, my argument is the reverse of that. I’m saying we should vote for Biden if the only other possible outcome is Trump.
Do you believe Trump would have handled this conflict any better?
I believe he would have responded roughly the same.
I also believe he would have fumbled the delicate balance Biden is trying to strike, where he has been able to protect and support Israel without provoking a wider conflict. Trump isn’t exactly a strategic statesman. Under Trump, Israel would have found itself facing total isolation from the West and a rapidly escalating conflict with all of its neighbors in the region. Whether that would result in Israel backing down with their tail between their legs or WW3 is hard to say.
I’m not voting for Trump, though. I don’t want either Biden or Trump. I want to kill myself. At least that way my vote counts.
You’re right, but if you think Trump would support genocide less, you’re wrong. Trump lives to embrace genocide.
You put down half a thought. So what are you going to do, vote for an actual fascist or not vote so that an actual fascist wins?
Dunno, it’s a year away, why call my shot now when I don’t have all the information yet? But if I voted today and it was Biden v Trump and no competitive 3rd party, it would be an easy blank on the presidential section.
But that’s a hypothetical, we’ll see if Biden aligns more with me in voting day, I can only assume he will double down on trying to seduce disenfranchised Republicans so I’m not hopeful.