The only people that regularly say that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist are stirring shit, it isn’t a good faith argument. It never, ever, leads to a good conversation where everyone stays chill and on topic.
There’s the implication that jews have no right to a homeland of some kind, which is probably why they attributed it to racism (antisemitism), but it isn’t necessarily about that. It could be, I don’t know your stance in that regard, but it’s definitely anti Israeli, which is a fairly pernicious loophole, imo.
If you’re saying that no nation has a right to exist, fine, cool, maybe saying that would have been a better choice. But you can’t pretend you don’t know that that rhetoric is also slung around by antisemites.
Now, I gotta add my usual warning here. This community isn’t the place to debate the issue itself. I’m not going to go any further than what’s needed to explain my opinion regarding PTB or not. There’s a solid community for continuing to debate topics that get locked, and others for political debates in general, if that’s your bag.
Edit: dog whistles and how they spread is not a new idea. I didn’t come up with it. And, busy today This was released.
Anyone thinking that dog whistles shouldn’t be removed by mods is blind. It’s a major problem on the internet. It doesn’t matter who or what the dog whistle targets, it’s the fact that it is a tool of bigotry that spreads like a disease, even through places and people that aren’t bigots. That’s the problem with coded language. It’s viral and pernicious.
The fact that anyone even saw the need to try and study it should be a clear indicator that when a mod, or a user scrolling by, sees a dog whistle in the wild like this, it can’t just be shrugged off as unimportant.
No settler colony has a right to exist. If you believe people have the right to kill Palestinians and steal their land because “they’re Jewish”, then you are the racist.
This is akin to removing comments saying Russia has no right to colonize Ukraine.
I am not putting words in your mouth your argument is complete nonsense
Since you still don’t get it let’s do a 1 for 1 comparison and swap for Israel with another religious ethogroup which murders civilians because it believes it has a right to a historical land.
By that argument no countries have a right to exist.
Correct. Borders are lines drawn in the sand because of modern warlords called politicians.
By singling out Israel people will assume you’re pushing the same antisemitic line.
“No one has the right to murder for land gain.”
“That’s wildly antisemitic!”
“I’m talking about Russia attacking Ukraine.”
Murder and war is bad. It’s not unique to Israel that murder is bad, because bloodshed is bad when any nation does it in the name of nationalism, and genocide.
Well, as I said, I’m not debating any of that here. If you want to post about it somewhere that is appropriate for that conversation, ping me, and we’ll talk about it.
Since when do we not talk about politics on Lemmy? That and posting about Linux is about the crux of Lemmy. Mods cannot decide censorship is warranted because they deem a subject “controversial”.
But before you decide to respond I would recommend you watch at least the first 10 minutes of this video as adresses every argument you made.
Pounding the political pulpit beyond the bare minimum necessary on this community is where it goes wrong.
And yes, actually, moderators absolutely get to decide what is and isn’t appropriate content for their community. That’s what a moderator is, the person or persons that curate a community.
And, yet a-fucking-gain, as I’ve already said, I’m not getting into debate about the subject itself here. I’m also not wasting my time with some random YouTube video as a proxy to that
Pounding the political pulpit beyond the bare minimum necessary on this community is where it goes wrong.
You said that comments denying the right of Israel to exist should be removed. This cannot be followed up by refusing to elaborate. If there is anything wrong or racist about saying an Apartheid should not exist then you are welcome to back it up with claims.
I am of the opposite opinion that anyone who believes Israel has the right to exist is racist.
And yes, actually, moderators absolutely get to decide what is and isn’t appropriate content for their community. That’s what a moderator is, the person or persons that curate a community.
With all the complains about “.ml censorship” I would not expect this kind of arguments here. LW moderators having the power to censor for Israel does not mean they are not in the wrong for doing it.
I was hoping you would have something more than “criticism of Israel is antisemitic” but I am not surprised and understand why you wanted to avoid the argument.
That’s a lot of assumptions there. There are many reasons to believe that Israel has no right to exist that aren’t connected to bigotry or racism. You could say a state of a single religion in power in detriment of other religions and peoples is a recipe for disaster, as it invariably disenfranchises part of what a real, non curated (read, oppressed/victim of genocide) population is, since there is no place in the world with open borders in which there is only one religion, unless enforced somehow. You could say other religions are allowed to exist in Israel, but we all know they don’t get the same rights as those of the jewish faith or even safety.
The homeland of Jews is the same homeland of Christians or Muslims or Buddhists. A free, democratic, secular land is home of us all. My homeland is home for Jews if they so wish it. To create special bubbles for religions, such as a country for a single religion, is antithetical to democracy, freedom of religion and secularism. It’s simply backwards thinking. Those are the values of the culture of a great deal of people and it’s only normal they reject the antithesis of those values. Sure, there are many countries with primacy for a single religion, and their system is, imo, not any more right than what Israel is.
Then, you have the way of how that land was appropriated and how it continues to be appropriated. There is no plan in the near or medium future for Israel that does not involve mass murder and repossession. To accept the existence of Israel is to accept their current ethos. There were decades of chances and proposals for a two state solution or a one state secular solution, but they didn’t happen and they aren’t happening, so for many the question boils down to, are you ok with wholesale genocide of the Palestinians in order for Israel to exist ? Because as of this current moment, one thing explicitly implies the other. Not per se, but taking into account the entire history of the modern state of Israel and the plans of its current administration.
I think thinking this way is dismissing an entire swath of legitimate expressions of political opinions that aren’t necessarily motivated by hatred of a religion or a race of people. I find it perfectly legitimate to consider Zionism and Israel toxic colonialist ideologies that have not brought and will never bring anything good to the world, but really, it depends on the context of before and after.
I could also consider that any person who thinks Israel has a right to exist is also expressing racism towards Palestinians, since for Israel to exist with their current plans, Palestinians must become stateless or be killed. However, i understand this issue is more complicated than that, since there are a myriad of reasons why someone could be thinking that. For instance, they could be thinking of a possible future where Israeli magically become human and stop indiscriminately murdering civilians, most of which children, then out of the goodness of their hearts spare an economically viable continuous stretch of land where Palestinians can exist in peace and make it illegal for wild settlers to drive them away from it. Like my dear, lovable and gullible EU does. For me personally I’d probably even disregard how much i idealogically disagree with the entire concept of Zionism, if genocide was off the table. I have the heart to try and accept other cultures, flawed as i may find them, but genocide i cannot.
Anyway, long story short, despite being used by antisemites, rejecting Israel or Zionism in itself is not evidence enough for racism or antisemitism and my opinion is that attempts of doing so are merely tools to groom public discourse away from the real problem of the ongoing genocide. Don’t take my word for it, hear the thousands of jews worldwide who came out to express just this feeling.
I respect your wishes to not debate. That doesn’t mean other people aren’t allowed to express their opinions to your comment in this public forum in regards to your already expressed opinions. Maybe someone else would like to come in other than you who shares your opinion. Maybe i could learn from their criticism of my opinions or yours and hopefully become a wiser person than i am now.
Nobody is asking you to continue debating. You do it if you feel like it bud. It’s your right to do as you please, so long as we’re all respectful here. All the best.
The point is that the more walls of text there are, the less the focus is on the point of the C/.
Every person that starts pounding their pulpit here makes it harder to wade through the junk and get to discussion about mod actions. There’s dozens of places to delve into the hot button topics, but there’s really only two that function as a practical meeting ground for ongoing discussions about moderation and how it shapes lemmy. When there’s a dozen off topic rambles about the secondary issue, it makes the community useless for its primary one.
And, for whatever fucking reason, instead of at least making the comments their own top level one, people seem to insist on clogging up my inbox with shit I’m not going to read because I already said I wasn’t interacting with it here. So it’s also annoying as fuck on a personal level. I genuinely wonder what the fuck people are thinking when they pull this shit. Someone says “I’m not going to engage in that subject”, but they’re going to pound the fuck out of that subject anyway. After a certain point, it’s just rude.
Wow you seem to have a personal level axe to grind with the way forums like Lemmy work. I’m gonna let you to it then. Get those kids off this lawn, grampa.
You don’t wanna answer, don’t answer. You don’t wanna read, don’t read. You don’t wanna watch youtube videos, don’t watch them. You don’t want replies about a topic, don’t express comments about that topic. You don’t get to say, oh here’s my opinion, here are my arguments, now nobody reply because i don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss it here. My brother in humanity, you started this whole discussion. Ain’t no way I’m going to start a thread in Israel-Palestine or whatever and ping you to reply to these arguments, that’s not how any of this works. A blog would perhaps be more appropriate if you desire that sort of engagement.
Sure.
The only people that regularly say that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist are stirring shit, it isn’t a good faith argument. It never, ever, leads to a good conversation where everyone stays chill and on topic.
There’s the implication that jews have no right to a homeland of some kind, which is probably why they attributed it to racism (antisemitism), but it isn’t necessarily about that. It could be, I don’t know your stance in that regard, but it’s definitely anti Israeli, which is a fairly pernicious loophole, imo.
If you’re saying that no nation has a right to exist, fine, cool, maybe saying that would have been a better choice. But you can’t pretend you don’t know that that rhetoric is also slung around by antisemites.
Now, I gotta add my usual warning here. This community isn’t the place to debate the issue itself. I’m not going to go any further than what’s needed to explain my opinion regarding PTB or not. There’s a solid community for continuing to debate topics that get locked, and others for political debates in general, if that’s your bag.
Edit: dog whistles and how they spread is not a new idea. I didn’t come up with it. And, busy today This was released.
Anyone thinking that dog whistles shouldn’t be removed by mods is blind. It’s a major problem on the internet. It doesn’t matter who or what the dog whistle targets, it’s the fact that it is a tool of bigotry that spreads like a disease, even through places and people that aren’t bigots. That’s the problem with coded language. It’s viral and pernicious.
The fact that anyone even saw the need to try and study it should be a clear indicator that when a mod, or a user scrolling by, sees a dog whistle in the wild like this, it can’t just be shrugged off as unimportant.
Israel doesn’t have a right to exist.
(The state of) Israel doesn’t have a right to exist, to keep the libs happy and unscreeching
I think you mean people with a realistic understanding of history and current reality… That’s definitely stirring shit in this fascist society.
Nobody has a right to “homeland” especially when it belongs to someone else and is stolen through genocide.
Exactly. Thanks. Go home.
Jews don’t have the right to kill other people and steal their land. Nobody has a Reicht to do that. This is not a “controversial” viewpoint.
By that argument no countries have a right to exist.
By singling out Israel people will assume you’re pushing the same antisemitic line.
Make better arguments and maybe that won’t be so easily swatted down.
No settler colony has a right to exist. If you believe people have the right to kill Palestinians and steal their land because “they’re Jewish”, then you are the racist.
This is akin to removing comments saying Russia has no right to colonize Ukraine.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
If you say “X has no right to exist” you’re going to get shut down because it’s a lazy inflammatory argument.
It’s a simple and obvious argument. They’ll be shut down because we live in a fascist society that denies basic history and reality.
I am not putting words in your mouth your argument is complete nonsense
Since you still don’t get it let’s do a 1 for 1 comparison and swap for Israel with another religious ethogroup which murders civilians because it believes it has a right to a historical land.
Does ISIS-K have a right to exist in Syria?
This is a question that zios never want to talk about.
Correct. Borders are lines drawn in the sand because of modern warlords called politicians.
“No one has the right to murder for land gain.”
“That’s wildly antisemitic!”
“I’m talking about Russia attacking Ukraine.”
Murder and war is bad. It’s not unique to Israel that murder is bad, because bloodshed is bad when any nation does it in the name of nationalism, and genocide.
Now you’re getting it.
Well, as I said, I’m not debating any of that here. If you want to post about it somewhere that is appropriate for that conversation, ping me, and we’ll talk about it.
Since when do we not talk about politics on Lemmy? That and posting about Linux is about the crux of Lemmy. Mods cannot decide censorship is warranted because they deem a subject “controversial”.
But before you decide to respond I would recommend you watch at least the first 10 minutes of this video as adresses every argument you made.
Oh, talking about politics on lemmy is fine.
Pounding the political pulpit beyond the bare minimum necessary on this community is where it goes wrong.
And yes, actually, moderators absolutely get to decide what is and isn’t appropriate content for their community. That’s what a moderator is, the person or persons that curate a community.
And, yet a-fucking-gain, as I’ve already said, I’m not getting into debate about the subject itself here. I’m also not wasting my time with some random YouTube video as a proxy to that
You said that comments denying the right of Israel to exist should be removed. This cannot be followed up by refusing to elaborate. If there is anything wrong or racist about saying an Apartheid should not exist then you are welcome to back it up with claims.
I am of the opposite opinion that anyone who believes Israel has the right to exist is racist.
With all the complains about “.ml censorship” I would not expect this kind of arguments here. LW moderators having the power to censor for Israel does not mean they are not in the wrong for doing it.
No, I said your comment should be removed because it’s a common antisemitic dog whistle
Your misleading and offensive conflation of zionism with judaism is what’s actually antisemitic.
I was hoping you would have something more than “criticism of Israel is antisemitic” but I am not surprised and understand why you wanted to avoid the argument.
Have a good day.
Look, just because you haven’t bothered to learn what a dog whistle is in this context doesn’t mean it isn’t the case
So why are you still typing?
That’s a lot of assumptions there. There are many reasons to believe that Israel has no right to exist that aren’t connected to bigotry or racism. You could say a state of a single religion in power in detriment of other religions and peoples is a recipe for disaster, as it invariably disenfranchises part of what a real, non curated (read, oppressed/victim of genocide) population is, since there is no place in the world with open borders in which there is only one religion, unless enforced somehow. You could say other religions are allowed to exist in Israel, but we all know they don’t get the same rights as those of the jewish faith or even safety.
The homeland of Jews is the same homeland of Christians or Muslims or Buddhists. A free, democratic, secular land is home of us all. My homeland is home for Jews if they so wish it. To create special bubbles for religions, such as a country for a single religion, is antithetical to democracy, freedom of religion and secularism. It’s simply backwards thinking. Those are the values of the culture of a great deal of people and it’s only normal they reject the antithesis of those values. Sure, there are many countries with primacy for a single religion, and their system is, imo, not any more right than what Israel is.
Then, you have the way of how that land was appropriated and how it continues to be appropriated. There is no plan in the near or medium future for Israel that does not involve mass murder and repossession. To accept the existence of Israel is to accept their current ethos. There were decades of chances and proposals for a two state solution or a one state secular solution, but they didn’t happen and they aren’t happening, so for many the question boils down to, are you ok with wholesale genocide of the Palestinians in order for Israel to exist ? Because as of this current moment, one thing explicitly implies the other. Not per se, but taking into account the entire history of the modern state of Israel and the plans of its current administration.
I think thinking this way is dismissing an entire swath of legitimate expressions of political opinions that aren’t necessarily motivated by hatred of a religion or a race of people. I find it perfectly legitimate to consider Zionism and Israel toxic colonialist ideologies that have not brought and will never bring anything good to the world, but really, it depends on the context of before and after.
I could also consider that any person who thinks Israel has a right to exist is also expressing racism towards Palestinians, since for Israel to exist with their current plans, Palestinians must become stateless or be killed. However, i understand this issue is more complicated than that, since there are a myriad of reasons why someone could be thinking that. For instance, they could be thinking of a possible future where Israeli magically become human and stop indiscriminately murdering civilians, most of which children, then out of the goodness of their hearts spare an economically viable continuous stretch of land where Palestinians can exist in peace and make it illegal for wild settlers to drive them away from it. Like my dear, lovable and gullible EU does. For me personally I’d probably even disregard how much i idealogically disagree with the entire concept of Zionism, if genocide was off the table. I have the heart to try and accept other cultures, flawed as i may find them, but genocide i cannot.
Anyway, long story short, despite being used by antisemites, rejecting Israel or Zionism in itself is not evidence enough for racism or antisemitism and my opinion is that attempts of doing so are merely tools to groom public discourse away from the real problem of the ongoing genocide. Don’t take my word for it, hear the thousands of jews worldwide who came out to express just this feeling.
Do people not read?
I said I wasn’t being into the debate here, and only went into it far enough to explain what OP asked for.
Yes we get it. Your original arguments were trash and you don’t want to defend them. Go away.
I respect your wishes to not debate. That doesn’t mean other people aren’t allowed to express their opinions to your comment in this public forum in regards to your already expressed opinions. Maybe someone else would like to come in other than you who shares your opinion. Maybe i could learn from their criticism of my opinions or yours and hopefully become a wiser person than i am now.
Nobody is asking you to continue debating. You do it if you feel like it bud. It’s your right to do as you please, so long as we’re all respectful here. All the best.
The point is that the more walls of text there are, the less the focus is on the point of the C/.
Every person that starts pounding their pulpit here makes it harder to wade through the junk and get to discussion about mod actions. There’s dozens of places to delve into the hot button topics, but there’s really only two that function as a practical meeting ground for ongoing discussions about moderation and how it shapes lemmy. When there’s a dozen off topic rambles about the secondary issue, it makes the community useless for its primary one.
And, for whatever fucking reason, instead of at least making the comments their own top level one, people seem to insist on clogging up my inbox with shit I’m not going to read because I already said I wasn’t interacting with it here. So it’s also annoying as fuck on a personal level. I genuinely wonder what the fuck people are thinking when they pull this shit. Someone says “I’m not going to engage in that subject”, but they’re going to pound the fuck out of that subject anyway. After a certain point, it’s just rude.
Stay the fuck on topic. It’s that easy.
Wow you seem to have a personal level axe to grind with the way forums like Lemmy work. I’m gonna let you to it then. Get those kids off this lawn, grampa.
You don’t wanna answer, don’t answer. You don’t wanna read, don’t read. You don’t wanna watch youtube videos, don’t watch them. You don’t want replies about a topic, don’t express comments about that topic. You don’t get to say, oh here’s my opinion, here are my arguments, now nobody reply because i don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss it here. My brother in humanity, you started this whole discussion. Ain’t no way I’m going to start a thread in Israel-Palestine or whatever and ping you to reply to these arguments, that’s not how any of this works. A blog would perhaps be more appropriate if you desire that sort of engagement.