Hi all, thank you for reading my post. modlod link
Clocks got banned first after suggesting that the OP try to be a genuine friend and try to find some common cause in real life rather than alienating people over abstract geopolitical factionalism:
I raised the issue that censoring earnest advice as ātankie apologiaā and preemtively writing off any common cause/ isolating people is no way to win people over either as friends or comrades.
I then got banned for this one, for continuing to find āthe tankie triadā extremely silly:
yeah thatās the context, I was just laughing because:
- only Lemmy users with an axe to grind call them that
- it sounds really silly, like theyāre a nemesis to dr venture.
- Iām supposed to be the melodramatic one yet every day I get one-upped š
screenshot:
Iām not here to tell them how to run their comm, my position is that this is way more draconian than anything Iāve run into in any of āthe tankie triadā. The same groups of people loudly complaining about censorship on ātankieā run instances donāt seem to have a problem enforcing vague/arbitrary vibes based censorship in their spaces.
YDI you went to a thread with a specific anti-tankie topic in a comm that is explicitly no tankies
The definition of ātankieā is pretty clearly arbitrary and vibes based. Iām an anarchist, Iāve organized with anarchists for years. Sorry if I donāt pass some terminally online litmus test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/tankie
I support the positive changes for society that happen regardless of the government, however ultimately all of them are still going to be representing a hierarchy to be dismantled at the end of the day.
I have a long litany of criticism for all of the countries listed, but this is is not an appropriate place to get into that. Generally any nuance gets lost from the conversation as soon as some online demagogue declares that itās either total ideological conformity or youāre a tankie.
Not to get condescending, I try to avoid being dogmatic myself, but itās a comfortable impulse. Actual human interaction requires curiosity, tolerance and not treating broad groups of people like a monolith. Like you can discard legitimate advice because you donāt like the messengers, but in the end itās you who is worse off for it.
I do not think I have seen you once criticize China or Russia, because if you had you would be more in line with me than you think.
Every government has done things worthy of praise and condemnation. To me an anarchist, at the very least, would be shitting on all the governments from the US to the CCP to the DPRK and everywhere in between
But I donāt see that from you or any other known tankie who also claims to be an anarchist. You have a pretty clear pattern of criticizing the West and then covering for what should be criticized of the CCP/Russia/NK etc.
Maybe this comes because I prefer local political organizing, but I live in the US right now, my current government is the one I have the biggest issues with, and thus I voice them online because itās relevant to me. The current government in Russia sucks ass, what do you want me to say? if I was living there Iād probably be getting persecuted for being trans. It actually sucks because even apart from this war it makes it almost impossible for me to visit family.
I actually have some optimism for china itās true, but like many places thereās issues, Iām not in favor of territorial land grabs in general, no matter the US provocation. They can also be very conservative but itās also hard for me to judge honestly from the other side of the planet and not speaking the language. I have seen enough trans people in china talking about their experience to say that itās possible to live a life there as a trans person- it just takes having a supportive family. Unless you want to end up homeless thatās also generally the case in the US. I donāt like seeing forced labor, but the american alternative next door was two decades of occupying afghanistan. I disapprove of prisons that turn prisoners into slave labor, but if the alternative is decades of widespread counter-insurgency and indiscriminate bombings I think Iām also capable of pointing to the lesser evil.
Youāve said more than every tankie Iāve ever seen, I donāt even think youāre that much of a tankie. Youāve always been the āodd one outā tankie whenever Iāve seen you around.
Do you honestly not see what the folks you defend say? Just saying āRussia sucksā earnestly like that, is probably the first time Iāve seen that. The closest Iāve ever seen out of a tankie was similar to āeven if they are that bad, itās totally worth it because the West is sooo much worseā¦ā
This has got to be the first politically related comment from you Iāve ever upvoted. Ya know Diva Iāve never tagged you as a tankie or defender like the others, I could never find a proper tag for your profile, your comments are alwaysā¦odd with what Iāve come to expect from tankies and their defenders.
Iāll take the compliment, I do try to be level-headed.
Iāve actually lurked on hexbear for some time, specifically because I was getting a feel for the culture. I havenāt seen anything I would classify as āpatrioticā socialism. Those types get roundly mocked when they show up. There are a lot of positive opinions of the USSR, but I havenāt seen anyone seriously saying Russia in the current day is anything but a reactionary hellhole to live in. They generally will point to the dissolution of the USSR and the liberalization of the economy as part of the reason for that, and frankly I would agree with that assessment.
But I have seen those kinds of comments, ok take [email protected] out of the equation and the āout of contextā screenshots as you call them.
I have personally read and even gotten into ādebatesā with the infamous .ml tankies like davel, dessalines and yogthos that did say things like Russia is great and Putin is a great leader fully justified to invade Ukraine, that there is no censorship in China and that NK isnāt a brutal dictatorship
Whatās the rationale there?
Yeah I donāt quite get this at all. There are some pretty openly vile tankies on the tankie instances. Thereās one in the other post right now lambasting libertarian socialism and proudly supporting dictatorship. I donāt understand why anyone would defend these people.
People arrive at class consciousness in different ways. I value people that I might not agree with 100% but know I can count on to show up or offer up resources when it matters because they actually care. Sometimes the person positioned and motivated to do the work is going to be the one showing up in an ushanka with a USSR flag. Iām not trying to sound condescending, but Iāve been around for a while and you donāt really get to be picky about who you organize with in real life. It may be uncomfortable to think about, but if thereās work to get done youāre probably going to find you value an extra set of hands more than policing abstract ideological purity for each and every person.
People who you form long term working relationships with will find common ground with you. Itās one thing for a meme comm to be doing the āauthoritarian anti-authoritarianismā bit, I think I can see the humor in that, but the person asking for advice on how to deal with a friend with a differing opinion is going to end up with one fewer friend if they take some of that advice seriously.
I truly do hope you are an anarchist. However most anarchists tend to be in favor of shooting the people trying to kill you and annex you into their dictatorship. Perhaps there is something about your stance I donāt understand.
In either case, I stand by that Clocks was making light of the oppression of dictatorships, and that suggesting that tankies and leftists only minorly disagree is tankie apologia. Defending that and then telling someone that the tankie problem on the tankie instances is overblown does make you look like a tankie to me. Also remember that you were banned for your last comments after you were warned, not for your first comment making fun of the term tankie triad.
If this is wrong I apologize, but I donāt really see any other way to read you based on your behavior so far.
Edit: I do sympathize with your anti profiteering stance and that you want to reduce the death count, but I canāt really see russia not killing people after annexing ukraine.
Youāll forgive me if I donāt get into specifics, I would rather not have to deal with IRL harassment. Iāve been at antiwar organizing since Iraq. It comes from an anarchist position, any war be it colonization or inter-capitalist conflict more broadly is always going to benefit capitalists first while killing countless workers in the process with nothing to show in the end but heightened exploitation and division. War should be opposed regardless of the narrative because itās a tremendous waste of human life and resources, not to mention a distraction from addressing global issues like climate change and pandemics. War is always the hallmark of a political-diplomatic failure. Iāve worked with a lot of different people over the years, youāre never going to agree with everyone 100% because thatās just being human but you can still be friends and share common cause as long as thereās mutual respect and understanding.
I donāt have any issue with that, if people want to fight they should fight. However thatās not all thatās been happening, they have been drafting/kidnapping people to the front for some time. Ukrainians are not a monolith and thereās plenty who would rather not die defending lines on a map. I donāt think any anarchist should approve of a state under martial law pressing people into service. I understand that itās a necessary evil in many situations, after all many anarchist revolutions have also used conscription. Donāt kid yourself that itās āanti-authoritarianā to be drafting people to your cause though.
Rest assured that I do not
Thatās a pretty wild take, since there are TONS of Ukranian anarchists on the front lines, and theyāre there quite willingly. They recognize that Russia is, by far, the greater evil.
Um. Thatās aā¦ Statement. Itās an objectively false statement, but itās a statement.
Letās take the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Pray tell, what political or diplomatic failure happened, and how could it have been prevented while also allowing Ukraine to determine their own future and move towards the EU in the way that the people of Ukraine wanted? Or, to put it more succinctly, where is the political or diplomatic failure in standing up to a bully?
Russia started the war. Thatās an undeniable fact. The only way to avoid the war would have been for Ukraine to simply roll over and accept a Russian dictatorship. If you think that not capitulating to a dictatorship is a failure, well, thatās a bad-faith claim.
They may be, but thereās plenty more people who donāt share that conviction drafted into service under martial law. Why are they obligated to sacrifice themselves? Itās been years, the mobilization is incredibly unpopular at this point.
Technically correct but more so because warfare has existed long before diplomacy/state politics. In the modern context I think it holds up though.
When it comes to Russia invading ukraine, the root cause political-diplomatic failure stems from the dissolution of the USSR without ever incorporating Russia into the security agreements. To destabilize a government to the point of collapse like that, then swoop in with the shock doctrine looting only created the conditions for someone like Putin to consolidate control. If they had continued to let Russia join NATO after the fall of the USSR and took a less adversarial approach overall there would almost certainly be considerably fewer dead people right now. It would probably be an austerity-crippled reactionary hellhole. The thing is our weapons industry needs to have constant geopolitical tension to justify its own existence. A politics centering global collaboration and reconciliation is incompatible with endless war profits.
I donāt think you understood my statement, not really sure what this line means either.