![Nazi lives DO matter according to the mods of [email protected]](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c2cd108d-170e-429d-bb92-f6f2bbf6bf4a.jpeg){kind=link}
Not really “powertripping”. Just pathetic. Consider this a notice to avoid feddit.org… I’ve unsubbed and blocked the instance.
We can’t dehumanize fascists for their choice to dehumanize everyone for things outside their control though, because that would be mean, and hurt their sociopath feefees!
Europe stool idly by throughout the 1930’s “tolerating” fascism, and the Nazi’s killed over 100 million people. Don’t make the same mistake as the radical centrists of history. Fascists will not afford you the same tolerance or courtesy.
If you don’t believe in human rights for Nazis, you don’t believe in universal human rights.
Right to life is a the most basic one.
Arguments about limiting free speech is on a different level.
Fascists not caring about free speech, but exploiting it in bad faith, is the core of the argument and very valid.
A three day ban is fine for something like this.
For some context, this person is a Zionist, and with the genocide in Palestine, it’s not surprising that they would have nazi sympathies.
Of course the antisemites show up right away to spread their hate.
I have protested against and fought Nazis with my own fists since I was 16.
Are you claiming that a person protesting against Israeli indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian men, women and children must be an antisemite?
No. What are you talking about?
The only thing he did was make an equivalence between Nazis snd Zionism. That comparison itself is already tantamount to Holocaust denial and thus antisemitic.
Zionism is the right of the Jewish people to self determination. Denying the Jewish people this human right is antisemitic.
If by self determination you mean establishing an ethnostate in stolen land
Zionism is nationalism. Mearly calling it a right to self-determination is disengenious.
On the other hand I agree that implying an equality between Zionism and Nazism (as in the facist ideoligy) downplays the severity of facism and the Holocaust in particular.
Yes, Zionism is Jewish nationalism, similar to Polish, Greek, Kurdish nationalism.
Yes, Zionism is Jewish nationalism, similar to Polish, Greek, Kurdish nationalism.
Although I don’t disagree with your core position, nationlism ≠ fascism
“Nazism is the right of the Aryan race to self determination. Denying the Aryan race this human right is anti-German bigotry”
That’s disgusting antisemitic and you know it.
Your denial of the Jewishness of all those people who are Jews and are against Zionism or simply do not agree that Zionism represents them, is the true antisemitism here.
It’s not up to you and it’s not up to Zionists to decide that Zionism represents all Jews, it’s up to all Jews and a lot of them think Zionism doesn’t represent them, hence “Zionism” is not at all equivalent to “Jew” and hence anti-Zionism is not at all equivalent to antisemitic.
The previous poster’s metaphor is spot on illustrating your inherent anti-semitism in how you defend your beloved flavour of ethno-Fascist political ideology: Zionists claim that they represent an entire ethnicity - even against statements of members of that ethnicity that they do not - and then claim that criticism of Zionism is actually an attack on the ethnicity, going so far as explicitly calling actual Jews who are critical of Zionism “anti-semites”, all of which is exactly as the Nazis did using “the Arian Race” (including the detail of accusing members of the Arian Race of being “against the Arian Race” or “not real Arians” when they voiced opinions critical of Nazism) which is why the previous poster’s metaphor was perfect - how you and your ideological brothers position yourselves in relation to the Jewish People and use that self-proclaimed relation in your “arguments” is straight out of a Himmler manual on Propaganda.
You’re the only Racist in this room and by making arguments in the same style as Nazi Propaganda you out yourself as a rabid, Nazi-style kind of Racist.
If you’re actually interested in the history of Zionism, opposition to it, anti-Zionism, and different Zionist schools of thought. This is a good introduction.
The Anti-Zionism of today isn’t represented by Bundism.
I didn’t do that. I only pointed out, that there’s a noticeable group of antizionists in the US, who only use their Jewish ancestry as a weapon against Israel, but are otherwise disconnected from the Jewish culture. Falls in the same category for Americans though to claim they’re Italian because their great-grandma was Italian, but they don’t speak the language, follow customs, or have even been to Italy. The question of who is a Jew is a very long one.
Naturei Karta and similar religious nutcases are of course Jews. I pointed out two two fringe groups that are used as tokens by antisemites in an attempt to cover their hate.
The Verband nationaldeutscher Juden was a Jewish organization that supported the original Nazis. Do you object to them being antisemitic?
The Jewish people are notorious for arguing and you can find someone espousing all kinds of outlandish ideas.
My argument was the vast majority of Jews support the existence of Israel as a state and safe place for the Jewish people.
It isn’t always, but typically. Only hating 90% of Jews, except the good ones, still is antisemitic.
If you’re against the existence of all nation states, then of course being anti-Zionist isn’t antisemitic. As soon as you wave a Palestinian nationalist flag, this doesn’t apply anymore obviously.
There are also anti-Zionists, objectively to Israel being a secular state with an Arab Muslim and other minorities. They want a theocratic monarchy, so a far more extreme goal. The tokens from Naturei Karta and such fall into this category.
Anti-Zionism means being opposed to the existence of Israel. Israel is home to half of the worlds Jews, most of whose ancestors arrived as refugees from persecution. Destruction of the state of Israel means persecution, exodus, death, flight, and death for the Jewish people. That is antisemitism in practice.
You don’t know enough about national socialism.
If you want to go back to that time, consider that it was the Zionist Jews who escaped and survived the Holocaust.
Your whole equivalence of Nazism to Zionism is pure antisemitism an vile.
Disliking Nazis is anti-German bigotry and you know it. Being anti-genocide is only motivated by hating the people doing the genocide and ethno-nationalism.
May have been in XIX or in the first half of XX century. At the moment it is a deeply racist movement denying Palestinians the same rights Jews enjoy.
Also Israeli government, supported by Zionist parties is definitely including nazis. So while I don’t argue that zionism is equivalent to nazism I can see where he was coming from.
You are misrepresenting Zionism. It has always had different ideological strains.
If you believe in a two state solution, congratulations you are a Zionist.
Demonization, delegitimization, antisemitism.
Stop talking rubbish. Criticism of Israel and/or zionism is not antisemitic.
Not necessarily, but it often is. As soon as you demand the destruction of Israel, or deny the Jewish people the right to self determination, it’s antisemitic.
What the hell are these arguments, and why are you getting upvotes?
These are very common arguments. You’re simply ignorant about this discourse.
This is the shaky part.
It is quite fair to make a comparison between Nazism and Zionism as long as someone frames Zionism as an attempt to eliminate Palestinians.
Sure you can lie and frame things in bad faith. Pure antisemitic logic.
🤡
EST
Eastern standard time? I’m confused 😓
every single time a zionist appears, somebody is going to be accused of anti semetism.
this trash behavior was enabled for 70 years, but it seems the peasants are waking up to what it was really about.
I appreciate the explanation but I’m still confused on what EST means 😭
Every Single Time
OHHH! I get it now, thank you
Your first sentence is simply incorrect. Nazis chose their lot. They weren’t born into it. Why are their lives Inviolate despite their expressed Desire to see others killed? They’re not Try again
Well, if you don’t believe in universal human rights, then your moral standing against Nazis is very shallow.
Vasily Zietsev didn’t stop the Nazis with moral standing.
There’s a difference of fighting back including killing to defeat an enemy or denying someone the basic right to life.
The first means you fight back until you defeat the enemy, the second one means after you defeat them you round them up and put them in camps to exterminate them.
It also means it limits your actions to those targets who actually hold power and not just anyone who has a Trump / Vance flag in their garden.
That was a war. He also didn’t check if German soldiers were party members or not.
What do you think the new Nazis are planning? A tea party?
Once a war has started, killing is morally acceptable, not before. Even then, only if it’s necessary to achieve military objectives. You don’t kill people for their ideological beliefs, but to stop their ability to act and remove them from power. Mass murder can never be the goal for anyone who believes in human rights.
Wars aren’t won by killing soldiers. They are won by stopping the enemy‘s ability to act. An army can’t fight without fuel, food, and ammunition.
That is a very strange and self-contradicting hill to die on.
That follows very clearly from the declaration of human rights and international humanitarian law. It’s not contradictory at all.
If you believe in universal human rights either all of humanity or none of humanity should be imprisoned or persecution by the state. Thinking murderers should be punished means you don’t believe in human rights.
WTF are you even on about? If someone violates the rights of others, punishment is of course acceptable. Self defense or defending others is also acceptable. Rights are not absolute. They are for everyone.
I swear this place is filled with teenage tankies.
I thought you said beliefs and actions shouldn’t matter. That’s the only reason “universal human rights” have to apply to fascists as equally as the rest of humanity.
Dude are you a fucking dumbass?
Nazis themselves do not believe in the right to life. They are like cockroaches. They cannot be allowed to spread.
You are using literal Nazi rhetoric. You have no moral standing.
Thank you for openly admitting that you cannot tell the difference between Nazism and opposition to Nazism. At least you admit it.
You seem to be completely bereft of self awareness. It’s remarkable really.
Y’all would’ve let the Nazis rampage across Europe to ‘not stoop to their level.’ I know for a fact, because you’re doing it now.
The Nazis aren’t the first to use the cockroach analogy, nor is it a particularly poor one to use when describing them
If we can’t do things because Nazis did them then there’s very little were allowed to do
And so on
By Roger Waters
Actually, this was a while ago, and there are a couple more layers to the cycle now, if you know where to look. Arabs killings Kurds, Kurds killing Turks. Some of the newer nodes are still forming and may or may not grow large, but they’re there.
You are really citing this notorious antisemite?
“The Final Cut” is quite good, too. It’s a big song about what war does. There is stuff that will break your heart.
“The Ballad of Bill Hubbard”
“The Gunner’s Dream”
“Two Suns in the Sunset”
“Watching TV”
“Home”
https://variety.com/2023/music/news/roger-waters-antisemitic-says-polly-samson-david-gilmour-agrees-pink-floyd-ukraine-1235515432/
Find better artists to listen to.
-Walt Kelly
These are suitable lyrics for the topic discussed here.
I believe the death penalty is immoral because I don’t believe there is such a thing as an act so heinous that it would be moral to kill them after the fact.
There is room in my moral framework for killing in self defense or defense of others, but I leave that to require some kind of immediacy. And I think enemy combatants in a hot war are fair game, too, but that requires a hot war as a precondition, and I don’t think we’re there right now.
Then you will only ever be in a position to defend yourself from Nazis.
I am also opposed to the death penalty, but I understand that there are circumstances where practicality overrides morality. Stopping the spread of Nazis is just such a circumstance.
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