• original_ish_name@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    13
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    I’m south african. My government has the means of production for electricity seized (they own Eskom which has a monopoly.) It is well known that while the regular person has to deal with load shedding, the government officials do not

    Add the issues with South African Airways and I would not like all the means of production to be owned by the government

    • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      27
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Owned by the government is specifically NOT “owned by the workers”. That is definitionally not socialism, and it’s not communism either.

      I seriously hate how no one even knows what socialism or real communism is… Only in stupid authoritarian “communism” like China do you have the government own much of anything directly. Hell, in proper Communism, there’s not supposed to be much of a government at all. Nothing like the giant armies of beurocrats and politicians most places have today, anyways.

      • R0cket_M00se@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        17
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        That’s kind of the point of most people who don’t think communism can function in current society, the government represents the people, right? So “the people” owning the means of production just becomes “the government” owning the means of production.

        Which is why all “communist” states that have ever existed function identically to their fascist counterparts, because regardless of what you call it, the state owns everything.

        • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          That is because most people literally lack the imagination. Literally incapable of understanding. Extreme communism doesn’t even have personal property or a main government, so to fail to see anything other than government ownership is a big tell on ignorance. Yes, most people are ignorant, and those in charge LOVE that fact.

          • dartos@reddthat.com
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            I think most people (correctly imo) don’t see how a large enough company can operate without some hierarchy, which seems to run up against the idea of being entirely equally employee owned.

            There’s always going to be leaders (manager or just someone who others listen to) That person necessarily has more responsibility and control than his peers and is justly compensated more (otherwise nobody would put in extra work, say, to train as an engineer or doctor)

            That person has their own interests that don’t always line up with the company and may use their influence to guide the company in a way that benefits them.

            Suddenly you have a worker class and a bourgeois-esque class.

            Most people (incorrectly imo) think that the “unbiased” checks and balances in government counteract that.

            If there’s another option that accounts for hierarchies in large employee owned and operated companies let me know…. please

            EDIT: large as in number of employees

            • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              6
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Again, people are implicitly strawmanning things. No one except extreme anarchists believe in zero hierarchy. Why does everyone always try these insane notions? I didn’t say “abolish hierarchy”, yet here you are using it as an argument.

              If you think executives that make literally hundreds of times more than the lower workers are actually working hundreds of times harder, you are fucking stupid.

              If you think they’re taking all the risk, then you are fucking stupid. If the company goes under, EVERYONE has to find a new job. If it’s a dangerous job, it’s the laborers who are taking basically all of the risk.

              Just because you can point at specific companies doing good things DOES NOT adequately defend the status quo.

              • dartos@reddthat.com
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                You didn’t present any ideas or solutions to argue against. There’s no argument happening here.

                Nor are there strawmen because there’s no argument being made.

                You said that there’s generally a lack of imagination with regards to this stuff and I was just sharing my opinions as to why.

                • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You are strawmanning the concept. I’m saying you are likely misunderstanding what the terms being discussed even mean.

      • huge_clock@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        How workers would own the means of production in socialism/communism without the government?

        • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          Only full blown anarchists and extreme libertarians don’t want a government at all. It is utterly foolish to think all leftists wouldn’t support ‘an’ enforcement agency, regulations, and laws…

    • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      Trust me, you don’t want those amenities in the hands of unelected greedy business men either.

      Load shedding is still better than not having any electricity at all because it isn’t profitable enough to manage the power net in your region.

      • original_ish_name@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        At least the greedy business men have a business to run. The politicians just get bailed out and spend it on luxury cars