Yes yes, we all see the rhetorical trap you’re trying to deploy. It’s not exactly subtle.
Meanwhile in the real world, in most of the US there is no realistic alternative to the red/blue dichotomy, and so while we’re actually building that alternative we have to choose between those two. At the national level and in most (possibly all) senate/house races, that’s the reality of the situation. You either work with the coalition you think is less evil and try to convince them to be even less evil, or you admit that you’re okay with the more evil option if it gives you a feeling of moral superiority.
Meanwhile in the real world, in most of the US there is no realistic alternative to the red/blue dichotomy, and so while we’re actually building that alternative we have to choose between those two.
You aren’t building the alternative, you’re arguing against building the alternative. You support the status quo.
You either work with the coalition you think is less evil and try to convince them to be even less evil, or you admit that you’re okay with the more evil option if it gives you a feeling of moral superiority
Correct, you’re doing the latter while I’m doing the former. Trying to work with Socialists and build a good party is better than sitting on your hands and giving the genocidal imperialists the keys forever.
“Building an alternative” doesn’t happen in the ballot box. It happens everywhere else.
It happens by getting a better voting system rather than FPTP, for which I’m doing actual, active advocacy. (Are you?)
It happens by working at a grassroots level to get people with better opinions elected, all the way down to local judges, city council members and library boards, where I, once again, am active. (Are you?)
It happens by getting involved in politics at a local level and building a movement. I’m doing that. (Are you?) It doesn’t happen by throwing a tantrum in the voting booth.
The fascists know this. The fascists use this to their advantage. And the fascists would absolutely love for there to be 10 competing leftist parties acting as a spoiler effect for liberals. Because as bad as liberals are, fascists are worse.
Throwing out a “no u” when I point out how the things you are doing are paving the way for fascists is not a good argument unless your goal is to actually get fascists into power. And I will choose liberalism over fascism, because that’s the harm reduction path to leftism, whereas letting the fascists win is the harm maximisation path.
“Building an alternative” doesn’t happen in the ballot box. It happens everywhere else.
Mostly correct, actually, it’s just important to highlight how unimportant the ballot box is.
It happens by getting a better voting system rather than FPTP, for which I’m doing actual, active advocacy. (Are you?)
No, because that’s silly, and won’t fix anything. Only revolution can.
It happens by working at a grassroots level to get people with better opinions elected, all the way down to local judges, city council members and library boards, where I, once again, am active. (Are you?)
Ah, the old “out of sight, out of mind” approach! Certainly won’t be sufficient.
It happens by getting involved in politics at a local level and building a movement. I’m doing that. (Are you?) It doesn’t happen by throwing a tantrum in the voting booth.
Yep, I am checking out my local chapters of FRSO and PSL and am going to sign on with one of them. They are DemCent, so I can’t join both.
The fascists know this. The fascists use this to their advantage. And the fascists would absolutely love for there to be 10 competing leftist parties acting as a spoiler effect for liberals. Because as bad as liberals are, fascists are worse.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, you can’t separate liberalism over time from fascism. Fascism isn’t an idea, but a defensive response to leftism.
Throwing out a “no u” when I point out how the things you are doing are paving the way for fascists is not a good argument unless your goal is to actually get fascists into power. And I will choose liberalism over fascism, because that’s the harm reduction path to leftism, whereas letting the fascists win is the harm maximisation path.
You say this while saying you help perpetuate liberalism, paving the way for fascism, lmao
That’s a lot of text to say “Yes, I want the fascist to win.”
Making things worse isn’t going to accelerate the revolution. It’s going to make things worse and kill the most vulnerable in our society - the ones who would most benefit from a revolution. If you truly want a socialist revolution, you need to have enough people on your side. And having those people be dead is counterproductive.
That’s a lot of text to say “Yes, I want the fascist to win.”
In other words, you can’t actually respond to my points so you’ll misrepresent them. Typical liberalism.
Making things worse isn’t going to accelerate the revolution.
Never said it would, that’s why I am trying to do what I can before liberals speedrun America into fascism.
It’s going to make things worse and kill the most vulnerable in our society - the ones who would most benefit from a revolution. If you truly want a socialist revolution, you need to have enough people on your side. And having those people be dead is counterproductive.
Yep, the Dems and Reps both are killing marginalized people, both domestically and abroad, so we have to abandon them and cease support for their genocide and imperialism
You’re talking in circles and fundamentally missing the point that neither voting third-party nor not voting isn’t going to make things better. It’s only going to make things worse.
The ballot box is for harm reduction, and equivocating the level of evil of two candidates only ever helps the more evil option.
If you want to make your first actual point, feel free to do so. If you want to keep repeating the very talking points that got us the situation that allowed for this genocide in the first place, don’t bother.
You’re talking in circles and fundamentally missing the point that neither voting third-party nor not voting isn’t going to make things better. It’s only going to make things worse.
Things are getting worse if either the Dems or Reps win, Third Party is the only chance electorally.
The ballot box is for harm reduction, and equivocating the level of evil of two candidates only ever helps the more evil option.
Pretending equal evils are different based on vibes alone isn’t harm reduction, it’s harm acceleration.
If you want to make your first actual point, feel free to do so. If you want to keep repeating the very talking points that got us the situation that allowed for this genocide in the first place, don’t bother.
If you want to make your first actual point, feel free to do so. If you want to keep repeating the very talking points that got us the situation that allowed for this genocide in the first place, don’t bother.
FPTP is only one problem with the system. But it’s still a problem pretty much everywhere that has it. There are many other things that make it particularly worse in the US, but that doesn’t make it not a problem with it.
There’s no red line that Americans can VOTE on. We don’t get to vote on how America goes to war, period. You really want to frame this in the context that your actually doing something other than undermining a fair election. You’ve gone way past the red line in your support of Trump.
Sure there is, you can vote Green or PSL. If you disapprove of the Democrats but will never not vote for them, you’re the same as the rabid supporters of Zionism that vote for the Dems, materially. Are you looking to join a Leftist party, try to destabilize the system and establish Socialism? If not, it seems like you’re just supporting the status quo and not lifting a finger no matter how bad it gets.
No, I don’t support Trump, that’s why I support leftist candidates and advocate for people to abandon the Dems and Reps.
You sure can if you believe that making an insignificant point in a ballot box is worth more than the actual lives of people who would die because of a Trump administration but not under a Harris one. But if you want to make an actual difference. the ballot box is one of the very few times you need to hold your nose and do the uncomfortable thing of choosing liberalism over fascism.
But if you’re okay with fascism, sure. Go and make your vote a spoiler that helps the fascists win. I’m sure the people who die because doctors who were scared to provide medically necessary abortions will be grateful that you did the morally superior, but entirely ineffective, thing.
You sure can if you believe that making an insignificant point in a ballot box is worth more than the actual lives of people who would die because of a Trump administration but not under a Harris one. But if you want to make an actual difference. the ballot box is one of the very few times you need to hold your nose and do the uncomfortable thing of choosing liberalism over fascism.
You can vote for fascism if that’s what you want, I reject it.
But if you’re okay with fascism, sure. Go and make your vote a spoiler that helps the fascists win. I’m sure the people who die because doctors who were scared to provide medically necessary abortions will be grateful that you did the morally superior, but entirely ineffective, thing.
You’re voting fascism in, the Dems have failed for half a century to codify abortion rights because they don’t care.
Why are you encouraging people to do things that will make it more likely for fascists to win and destroy what little leftist organizing there is in America? The only rational conclusion is that you want fascism. But you keep avoiding that question. Is it because you’re taking a page out of the alt-right playbook?
You wouldn’t know fascism if you lived in Nazi Germany. Read the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds, fascism is just Capitalism in decay, and neither the DNC nor GOP are capable of stopping that.
you keep saying “vote” as if it means the same thing in a ranked-choice voting system and a first-past-the-post voting system.
newsflash: you’re not making the difference you claim you’re making. if anything, you’re making it worse. congratulations! good job! you did it! you get a good star!
You and everyone else here with an agenda ARE supporting the status quo
TIL advocating people to join revolutionary parties and overthrow the system is “supporting the status quo,” while voting for the establishment parties is “punk.” Is this a Twilight Zone episode?
Do you think you’re voting socialism in with a Jill Stein vote?
Nah, just voting against genocide and Imperialism. Voting doesn’t really matter anyways
Because I guarantee you that’s not what she’s running for.
Cool.
You know very well that you can’t go into an American polling station and vote for anti-establishment policies.
I can and I will.
The spoiler vote comes down to ONE real world mechanic. Undermining the popular candidate’s vote.
Can’t be a spoiler if I would never vote for a genocidal monster anyways. Harris is spoiling her own votes.
"You really want to frame this in the context that your actually doing something other than undermining a fair election. "
I find that arguing a person must vote for one of two pro-genocide parties already undermines your idea of a “fair election.” What primary even nominated Harris as the Democrat candidate? -Not that our primary systems is particularly representative of a “fair election” system, either. I just don’t remember when these were candidates voted on.
then is the system fair? is it really democracy whats happening here?
societies generally throw away the rules and stop relying on these institutions when it becomes clear they arent actually doing anything for us. why arent us?
That’s actually prety obvious after reading Marx: the system still works as intended for whom it was intended to work, namely for bourgeoisie and their lackeys. The contradictions aren’t yet big enough to cause the overthrowing of it. Liberals, people who we are trying to convince here to open their eyes and see that they are voting for genocide, for actual mass extermination of entire people, actually (with small exceptions) already have their eyes open - they just don’t see anything undesirable in the picture: brown people half of world away and their deaths are perfectly ignorable for them, their lives are pretty comfortable and they just want to stop reading uncomfortable opinions and get back to brunch.
So either there’s no red line, or genocide doesn’t matter if it’s against Muslims for you.
Yes yes, we all see the rhetorical trap you’re trying to deploy. It’s not exactly subtle.
Meanwhile in the real world, in most of the US there is no realistic alternative to the red/blue dichotomy, and so while we’re actually building that alternative we have to choose between those two. At the national level and in most (possibly all) senate/house races, that’s the reality of the situation. You either work with the coalition you think is less evil and try to convince them to be even less evil, or you admit that you’re okay with the more evil option if it gives you a feeling of moral superiority.
You aren’t building the alternative, you’re arguing against building the alternative. You support the status quo.
Correct, you’re doing the latter while I’m doing the former. Trying to work with Socialists and build a good party is better than sitting on your hands and giving the genocidal imperialists the keys forever.
“Building an alternative” doesn’t happen in the ballot box. It happens everywhere else.
It happens by getting a better voting system rather than FPTP, for which I’m doing actual, active advocacy. (Are you?)
It happens by working at a grassroots level to get people with better opinions elected, all the way down to local judges, city council members and library boards, where I, once again, am active. (Are you?)
It happens by getting involved in politics at a local level and building a movement. I’m doing that. (Are you?) It doesn’t happen by throwing a tantrum in the voting booth.
The fascists know this. The fascists use this to their advantage. And the fascists would absolutely love for there to be 10 competing leftist parties acting as a spoiler effect for liberals. Because as bad as liberals are, fascists are worse.
Throwing out a “no u” when I point out how the things you are doing are paving the way for fascists is not a good argument unless your goal is to actually get fascists into power. And I will choose liberalism over fascism, because that’s the harm reduction path to leftism, whereas letting the fascists win is the harm maximisation path.
Mostly correct, actually, it’s just important to highlight how unimportant the ballot box is.
No, because that’s silly, and won’t fix anything. Only revolution can.
Ah, the old “out of sight, out of mind” approach! Certainly won’t be sufficient.
Yep, I am checking out my local chapters of FRSO and PSL and am going to sign on with one of them. They are DemCent, so I can’t join both.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, you can’t separate liberalism over time from fascism. Fascism isn’t an idea, but a defensive response to leftism.
You say this while saying you help perpetuate liberalism, paving the way for fascism, lmao
That’s a lot of text to say “Yes, I want the fascist to win.”
Making things worse isn’t going to accelerate the revolution. It’s going to make things worse and kill the most vulnerable in our society - the ones who would most benefit from a revolution. If you truly want a socialist revolution, you need to have enough people on your side. And having those people be dead is counterproductive.
In other words, you can’t actually respond to my points so you’ll misrepresent them. Typical liberalism.
Never said it would, that’s why I am trying to do what I can before liberals speedrun America into fascism.
Yep, the Dems and Reps both are killing marginalized people, both domestically and abroad, so we have to abandon them and cease support for their genocide and imperialism
You’re talking in circles and fundamentally missing the point that neither voting third-party nor not voting isn’t going to make things better. It’s only going to make things worse.
The ballot box is for harm reduction, and equivocating the level of evil of two candidates only ever helps the more evil option.
If you want to make your first actual point, feel free to do so. If you want to keep repeating the very talking points that got us the situation that allowed for this genocide in the first place, don’t bother.
Things are getting worse if either the Dems or Reps win, Third Party is the only chance electorally.
Pretending equal evils are different based on vibes alone isn’t harm reduction, it’s harm acceleration.
If you want to make your first actual point, feel free to do so. If you want to keep repeating the very talking points that got us the situation that allowed for this genocide in the first place, don’t bother.
i just want to pass by to point out that not-fptp is implemented on many places without the big results the proponents of this solution say it to be.
the same goes for mandatory voting. we have the same issues with electoralism.
FPTP is only one problem with the system. But it’s still a problem pretty much everywhere that has it. There are many other things that make it particularly worse in the US, but that doesn’t make it not a problem with it.
the main problem we should be striving to fix to actually end this madness is the undue influence of capital in our ‘democracies’ due to capitalism.
There’s no red line that Americans can VOTE on. We don’t get to vote on how America goes to war, period. You really want to frame this in the context that your actually doing something other than undermining a fair election. You’ve gone way past the red line in your support of Trump.
Sure there is, you can vote Green or PSL. If you disapprove of the Democrats but will never not vote for them, you’re the same as the rabid supporters of Zionism that vote for the Dems, materially. Are you looking to join a Leftist party, try to destabilize the system and establish Socialism? If not, it seems like you’re just supporting the status quo and not lifting a finger no matter how bad it gets.
No, I don’t support Trump, that’s why I support leftist candidates and advocate for people to abandon the Dems and Reps.
You sure can if you believe that making an insignificant point in a ballot box is worth more than the actual lives of people who would die because of a Trump administration but not under a Harris one. But if you want to make an actual difference. the ballot box is one of the very few times you need to hold your nose and do the uncomfortable thing of choosing liberalism over fascism.
But if you’re okay with fascism, sure. Go and make your vote a spoiler that helps the fascists win. I’m sure the people who die because doctors who were scared to provide medically necessary abortions will be grateful that you did the morally superior, but entirely ineffective, thing.
You can vote for fascism if that’s what you want, I reject it.
You’re voting fascism in, the Dems have failed for half a century to codify abortion rights because they don’t care.
You’re all or nothing take on it sounds a little fascist to me…
You wouldn’t know what fascism was if you lived in Mussolini’s Italy or Nazi Germany. Read Blackshirts and Reds, at least the first chapter.
You’re literally making the choice to put fascism in power. I’m trying to stop you from making the same mistake I made in 2016.
You’re literally voting for fascism, not sure what you mean here.
Words have definitions. Harris, for everything I don’t like about her, is a liberal. Not a fascist. Trump, on the other hand, is a fascist.
The choices here are simple: fascism (Trump), not-fascism (Harris), or “I really don’t care, do u?”
Why are you encouraging people to do things that will make it more likely for fascists to win and destroy what little leftist organizing there is in America? The only rational conclusion is that you want fascism. But you keep avoiding that question. Is it because you’re taking a page out of the alt-right playbook?
You wouldn’t know fascism if you lived in Nazi Germany. Read the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds, fascism is just Capitalism in decay, and neither the DNC nor GOP are capable of stopping that.
you keep saying “vote” as if it means the same thing in a ranked-choice voting system and a first-past-the-post voting system.
newsflash: you’re not making the difference you claim you’re making. if anything, you’re making it worse. congratulations! good job! you did it! you get a good star!
Not sure what you’re getting at here, RCV or FPTP, doesn’t make a difference, electoralism is useless.
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Wake up, liberal! Lol
TIL advocating people to join revolutionary parties and overthrow the system is “supporting the status quo,” while voting for the establishment parties is “punk.” Is this a Twilight Zone episode?
Nah, just voting against genocide and Imperialism. Voting doesn’t really matter anyways
Cool.
I can and I will.
Can’t be a spoiler if I would never vote for a genocidal monster anyways. Harris is spoiling her own votes.
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Please explain exactly what you’re talking about here, that’s BS.
You literally said “methinks,” pot meet kettle. I shitpost because it’s quick and work has uptime and downtime.
I find that arguing a person must vote for one of two pro-genocide parties already undermines your idea of a “fair election.” What primary even nominated Harris as the Democrat candidate? -Not that our primary systems is particularly representative of a “fair election” system, either. I just don’t remember when these were candidates voted on.
then is the system fair? is it really democracy whats happening here?
societies generally throw away the rules and stop relying on these institutions when it becomes clear they arent actually doing anything for us. why arent us?
That’s actually prety obvious after reading Marx: the system still works as intended for whom it was intended to work, namely for bourgeoisie and their lackeys. The contradictions aren’t yet big enough to cause the overthrowing of it. Liberals, people who we are trying to convince here to open their eyes and see that they are voting for genocide, for actual mass extermination of entire people, actually (with small exceptions) already have their eyes open - they just don’t see anything undesirable in the picture: brown people half of world away and their deaths are perfectly ignorable for them, their lives are pretty comfortable and they just want to stop reading uncomfortable opinions and get back to brunch.