I’ve used a US-QWERTY keyboard layout my entire life. I’ve seen other layouts that do things like reduce the size of the enter/backspace keys, move the pipe operator (|) and can’t wrap my head around how I would code on those.
What are your experiences? Are there any layouts that you prefer for coding over US English? Are there any symbols that you have a hard time reaching ( for example)?
Never used a US keyboard in my life. Why would you think US keyboard is the norm?
Always used it. You have instant semicolon instead of Ä, which you don’t use when coding, and brackets and curlies are a breeze, the comfort is well worth it
That comfort exists on other keyboards as well
There are like thousands of different keyboard layouts, and you can be certain there will be one that is more comfortable than the US for programming.
Colemak is considered the best for programming.
I use the UK layout, because I am British. Why would I use the US layout?
Average American trying to comprehend that people from other countries exist
… or just didn’t know UK keyboards were different
I mean the layout they mentioned is called “US” layout I’m sure they could deduct that there are other country specific ones
I’ve seen Tomorrow Never Dies, so I know there are Chinese keyboards.
The UK speaks English though, so I would have figured a UK keyboard would be at least very similar to a US keyboard, enough so that switching from one to the other wouldn’t be too hard.
Every language has a different lay out because they are all based upon the typing machine.
Which needed a specific layout so the hammers didn’t hit each other during commonly typed letters.
And yes, British English is a different language than American English. That is why you have things like colour and color.
I’m pretty sure most people outside the US do that
I prefer a British keyboard layout as that’s where I’ve always lived and that’s what all the computers come with here.
Actually no, Apple fucks it up a bit by having a weird hybrid between US layout and British layout which is pretty infuriating to have to learn (opt+3 for the # character? wtf Apple?), particularly given I switch between PC and Mac daily
This drove me up the wall. And, I hate to admit it, but I’ve let Apple win. I use Windoze for work so I’ve swapped @ and " to be the same as Apple UK, and if I run Linux I choose the Apple UK layout as well. It’s just…easier rather than having to reset my muscle memory every day.
Ahh, I can’t make that change I’ve used windows and Linux for many more years than I have Macs, the Mac way will always be the one that feels wrong to me!
Basically means I inevitably have to do the "@£`# dance a couple times a day
ISO for life.
You can keep your stupid tiny little enter key.
This!
Oh good I hate that tiny little enter key.
The enter key I got used to on an ANSI keyboard I had for a while but what actually made the bigger difference was the
\\/|key being above the enter key at the far right end of the keyboard which is hard to reach with the pinky. Rather important key for being that hard to reach.No way - the two enter keys are about the same size - yours is just rotated 90 degrees and further away. That’s not an improvement. Even worse though is the tiny left shift key - I can’t get used to that.
With an ANSI keyboard you can comfortably reach the enter and left shift without taking your other fingers off the home row. With ISO you have to move your arm which is particularly bad for the shift key since you might need to press other keys at the same time, but now your hand is in the wrong position.
On the ISO keyboards I’ve seen, the enter key has way more than double the surface area than ANSI, so it’s definitely not ‘just rotated 90 degrees’. Also these people probably grew up with ISO and struggle with ANSI, just like you probably grew up with ANSI and struggle with ISO.
hahaha, no.
I program like I learned it? I use my German QWERTZ layout. A lot of keys are different, yes, but I grew up with this layout and I’m used to it. Imagine giving me a US QWERTY layout and I would misstype every time. I even hate it when Windows swtiches my keyboard layout, even though I removed the shortcuts to it and I misstype constantly. Heck even Visual Studio switched my shortcuts and it sucked.
After some time I realized that (Game) Devs suck, because they forget that other layouts exist. Its not a big deal, but at some point I realized that the Chats on T, Y, U makes much more sense on a QWERTY Layout. Also Markdown with ` kinda sucks. For a codeblock, I need to hold shift and press the key that is left of backspace 3 times and then one space, because when I press it once, nothing happens but pressing it a second time, 2 appear. Pressing space let it appear directly. Or I type 4 and remove one.
But this it what I’m used to. And if I ever would work outside Germany, I will bring my own QWERTZ keyboard and require them to install the German Keyboard. I don’t need a German UI. I have all programming related software in English, because its easier to google stuff.
I ever would work outside Germany, I will bring my own QWERTZ keyboard and require them to install the German Keyboard.
The computer doesn’t know which labels are printed onto the key caps. You can type any layout you want, no matter the physical layout.
Except that there exist multiple physical layouts and then keys can be missing and some keys are shaped different.
A lot of us don’t live in the US to begin with, so I assume a significant portion of us just use whatever the local standard is. That’s where I’ve been at so far, the Brazilian layout is a QWERTY variant so not that different. It does make some things more awkward, but you get used to what you have to work with.
Brackets and curly braces are less convenient off the top of my head, backticks too. Vim is a tad less ergonomic without some extra fiddling, for instance. In fact, I’ve been considering getting a US keyboard for coding to make that kinda thing less of an issue, US international makes accents and whatnot accessible enough that I think I could make it work.
If you’re cheap like me, just change the keyboard layout on the software side and instead of looking at the now incorrect key caps, look at the American keyboard layout image on Wikipedia instead. It doesn’t take long to relearn the few differences. And the parentheses are more ergonomic on the us keyboard layout IMO.
Edit: compared to the German layout. Brazilian looks ergonomic enough for programming without having to switch.
I think the @ being a shift 2 would confuse me the most in the beginning, before getting used to it.
I’m a Brazilian web developer living in Germany for 32 years and actually never used a Brazilian keyboard. I may be returning to Brazil for a while, i don’t know yet if I’m adopting the Brazilian variant or just keep using the German one.
Just keep using the layout you’re used to. I’m Brazilian too, but I’ve lived abroad my whole life, and US layout is what I’m most used to (even though I’ve never lived there, funny enough). When I’m on other keyboards, I just switch the layout to US International, and stop looking at the keyboard.
Ah, interesting! I’d have guessed about a dozen annoyances before that one even came to mind haha. Hope you have a good time around these parts at any rate :)
Also, I’d never taken a serious look at the German layout but going by the truly wild differences there you may as well stick with what you have IMO, I think it’s what I’d do at least.
I also never checked the Brazilian tbh. Guess I’ll just check it out, if the opportunity arises.
Yeah, it’s been a good time here - the pandemic and the inflation made things pretty difficult though, but i assume, just like the pandemic, everyone around the world is struggling with inflation atm.
This PT-BR keyboard layout is a mess, a mix between the US layouts and the PT-PT one. That’s why you’ve less than convenient brackets and curly braces. Frankly I see no reason why there’s still this two layouts for the same language. Can’t we just agree on some mix of PT-BR and PT-PT?
What are your experiences? Are there any layouts that you prefer for coding over US English? Are there any symbols that you have a hard time reaching ($ for example)?
I’m using a PT-PT ISO layout keyboard, zero issues reaching anything, works as good as your US keyboard for coding. Actually it might work better because I have a bigger “enter” key.
can’t wrap my head around how I would code on those.
Typical American trying to comprehend that people from other countries exist? :P
Think about it this way, all the EU keyboards are essentially the same as yours but tweaked to accommodate languages that have more special chars than English.
I live in Brazil but I also use US- Dvorak as OP. Is a pita everytime I need to write the ç, or õã cause I have to change the keyboard just to write a letter.
You may want to take a look at dvorak-intl and or dvorak-alt-intl, which adds the alt-gr layer to type language specific characters
I think I tried it once, but the R and L had their position changed, and not all machines have the intl version so I just went back to the US one.
Fellow PT-PT ISO user here. And although I use PT-PT in the OS, both my mechanical keyboards’ physical layout is DE ISO, which has most special symbols in the same place. (finding DE keyboards is easier)
I’ve considered switching to UK ISO before. Typing brackets “
[] {}” and a semicolon “;” is harder in PT-PT. Especially the curly brackets{}, which are really awkward to type with my small hands.
They told me not to reinvent the wheel, so all I need to program is this:
I am German and I use the German keyboard layout…
If you don’t live is the US, it’s pretty common to not use a US keyboard!
Tried the maltron layout at one point. Nope.
Swedish layout. Not ideal for coding (too many things like curly and square brackets etc are under altgr. And tilde and backtick are on dead keys.
But switching back and forth as soon as you need to write Swedish (for the letters åäö) is just too much work. And yes, in the Swedish alphabet they are separate letters, not aao with diacretics.
I’m swedish and I use EurKEY. It’s basically US but makes it possible to use Å/Ä/Ö through altgr + W/A/O. I don’t write that much swedish so I’m not too bothered, meanwhile the coding advantage is huge for
' " \ | / ? | [ ] { }.Win + space to swap is so fast and simple especially when it also swaps for you when switching apps
I have the same problem in German (ä, ö, ü and ß), and I’ve resigned to using US layout with caps lock mapped as compose key. But then again, I code more than I write texts
In polish we have ź and ż. For ż we use Alt gr + z, and for ź we use Alt gr + x. Same for other non-standard letters. The rest of the keyboard is a regular US layout.
So in Swedish you could use Alt gr + a and Alt gr + s for different variants of a.
I program with the italian layout and i’s fine, the only annoyances are that to use the slash you need to use shift, all while the backslash has a dedicated key; also you need to use alt codes to type a tilde.
Same. Forward slash always annoys me. It’s in the middle of the keyboard, so you have to either 1. make a very uncomfortable move with your right hand, or 2. make an uncomfortable move with your right hand, or 3. use both your hands, which sucks.
Luckily I’m using linux, so I have tilde and backtick (`) as AltGr+’ and AltGr+ì, which are pretty easy to type.
Just a thing for making it more sufferable; i remember that there was a program for linux called xkeycaps to edit keyboard layouts; so you could swap the backslash with the normal one. I used it so long ago that I’m not even sure if it still available and working though
Getting used to it is going to be a hell of a ride, but this is a wonderful thing.
Also using other pc is going to be even harder lol
I mainly write JS and not having a backtick on my keyboard annoys the fuck out of me. Other than that the Italian keyboard is alright, never had any other problems with it.
the only annoyances are that to use the slash you need to use shift
Oof, that sounds really annoying. I can’t possibly imagine how I would use the terminal that way
After a while it becomes muscle memory; the good thing is that you can see if someone is a programmer/linux user because the key for the numer 7 is more worn out than most of the others
On Czech keyboard I use AltGr+q and it’s fine, muscle memory really does the hard work for you.
You just… get used to things. Like how you first got used to your keyboard to begin with
Nope. I still hate ISO and KS/JIS with passion, even after spending years with those. Keyboard being anything other than ANSI is a huge dealbreaker to me now.
I believe most people in Europe use a localized ISO layout. I used ISO for most my life but in my personal opinion ANSI is way better for software development. I just don’t see myself ever going back to ISO.
I wish I was brave enough to try Colemak or Dvorak, tho!
I’m used to the ISO layout, so whenever I type on an ANSI keyboard I miss the enter key and hit the one above. It’s annoyingly hard to find laptops with ISO keyboards.
Yeah I forgot that they do this weird ANSI/ISO mix for laptops.
I believe most people in Europe use a localized ISO layout.
Except Romania, where 99% of people use US QWERTY due to a very particular set of circumstances:
- Romanian has very few diacritics and it can be 99% understood (in writing) even if you omit them completely. So most of the time people don’t bother to use diacritics for digital communication.
- After the 1989 Revolution when it rejoined the modern world the Government took about a decade to make up and push standards for the Romanian language in IT (a history of all the fuckups is here if you’re curious). Localized ISO layout and Romanian keyboards were eventually created but they never quite took off…
- …last but not the least because a simpler layout has become the de facto standard (diacritics on 3rd and 4th level, activated with the right-hand Alt). It’s simple, intuitive, easy to learn, and you can use it with any US keyboard.
