• umbraroze@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Technically, SQL is case-insensitive.

    Practically, you want to capitalise the commands anyway.

    It gives your code some gravitas. Always remember that when you’re writing SQL statements you’re speaking Ancient Words of Power.

    Does that JavaScript framework that got invented 2 weeks ago by some snot-nosed kid need Words of Power? No. Does the database that has been chugging on for decades upon decades need Words of Power? Yes. Words of Power and all the due respect.

  • rwhitisissle@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    The phrase “SQL programmers” is so fucking weird. SQL isn’t a programming language. It’s a query language. You don’t “program” things with SQL. You utilize SQL as a component of programs for data insertion and lookup, but the actual logic of execution is done in a programming language. Unless you’re doing Oracle PL/SQL, in which case why are you giving money to Oracle?

    Edit: Damn, this comment made people mad.

    • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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      1 year ago

      Your knowledge of data engineering may be limited. SQL is predominant in data processing nowadays. FOSS tools such as DBT allows to write efficient data processing pipelines with SQL and some YAML config without the need for a general purpose coding language.
      Why would anyone want that? Because SQL has the interesting property of describing the result you want rather than describing how to compute it. So you can put inside the database, a query engine with decades of optimizations, that will make a much better job at finding the best execution plan than the average developer.
      It also means it’s easier to train people for data processing nowadays.

      • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Learning DBT was pretty easy for me as a data analyst. Now I’m contributing to my company’s data warehouse instead of just pulling existing data.

    • KarmaPolice@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Most database engines support stored procedures. You don’t need to give money to oracle, you can give it to Microsoft instead.

    • SomeNewThing@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      T-SQL is turing complete. While the MS SQL server has limitations on OS level operations, if you allow yourself some leeway with CLR wrappers for the win32 API, there’s no reason I can think of you wouldn’t be able to get the database engine to be a webserver reacting to incoming requests on port 80, or drawing GUIs based off of table state.

      It’s be slow and terrible, but doable.

    • fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com
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      1 year ago

      This doesn’t make sense to me. SPs and functions are in every major database. If I wrote a bash script that runs like a program, and sounds like a program, did I program it? Script it?

      And lots of systems have nested logic in the DB, optimization often leads to that to reduce overhead. Unless you’re being lazy with an ORM like prisma that can’t even join properly.

      Getting high performing queries is just as difficult as any other programming language, and should be treated as such. Even Lemmy’s huge performance increases to .18ish came from big PG optimizations.

      • mbp@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        It seems to be about yelling at others that “you’re not a real programmer!!!” mixed with being so “technically correct” my eyes can no longer roll the same way they used to.

      • Random_user@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It’s mostly ignorance. People tend to underestimate or dismiss things they don’t completely understand.

      • rwhitisissle@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Admittedly, this discussion is more one of semantics than anything. It’s pretty clear I’m arguing that SQL is not a “General Purpose Language,” and that proficiency in that domain is what constitutes programming. Which, yeah, is arguably somewhat arbitrary. But my point is that, colloquially, someone who only works with SQL isn’t a programmer. Data Engineer, sure. DBA. Also, sure. Depends on what you do. Programmer? Not really. Not unless you (as in the person, not “it’s theoretically possible”) can use raw SQL to read in video data from a linux system device file and then encode it to mp4 and just nobody’s told me.

        • fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com
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          1 year ago

          Do that in Javascript. Or HTML. Or CSS. Or by that logic is a web developer not a programmer? What about microcontroller programmers?

          I could easily write a full logic program in SQL where the API just feeds it data, which is the inverse of how you treat SQL. Admittedly that’s not as common, but it happens pretty frequently in areas of big data, like medical.

          I’ve hired Senior Software Engineers that were DBAs, and others that weren’t. They were a development team, all programmers in their own right.

      • rwhitisissle@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        So is Tex. And, yet, I still don’t put it under the “programming languages I know” section on my resume. Probably because it’s not a programming language.

          • rwhitisissle@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            It’s important to keep an up to date resume, even if you’re employed. That’s a little life pro tip for you kids out there, with your iphones and your tik toks and your Fortnite dances and your existential malaise brought about by encroaching climate disaster and advanced technoindustrial capitalism.

        • corship@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Where you put it is not my problem.

          The general census is that latex actually is an example of programming languages sharing semantics with non programming languages and not being intend as a programming language.

          since you linked to wikipedia:

          The domain of the language is also worth consideration. Markup languages like XML, HTML, or troff, which define structured data, are not usually considered programming languages.[12][13][14] Programming languages may, however, share the syntax with markup languages if a computational semantics is defined. XSLT, for example, is a Turing complete language entirely using XML syntax.[15][16][17] Moreover, LaTeX, which is mostly used for structuring documents, also contains a Turing complete subset.[18][19]

          Programming language

          Sometimes even non Turing complete languages are considered a programming language but Turing completeness usually is the criteria agreed upon:

          The majority of practical programming languages are Turing complete,[5] and all Turing complete languages can implement the same set of algorithms. ANSI/ISO SQL-92 and Charity are examples of languages that are not Turing complete, yet are often called programming languages.[6][7] However, some authors restrict the term “programming language” to Turing complete languages.[1][8]

    • dan@upvote.au
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      1 year ago

      You don’t “program” things with SQL

      Why not? It sounds like you haven’t written any OLAP queries :)

      I’ve written ETL data pipelines using a system similar to Apache Airflow, where most of the logic is in SQL (either Presto or Apache Spark) with small pieces of Python to glue things together. Queries that are thousands of lines long that take ~30 minutes to run and do all sorts of transformations to the data. They run once per day, overnight. I’d definitely call that programming.

      Most database systems support stored procedures, which are just like functions - you give them some input and they give you some output and/or perform some side effects.

      • BurnerPhone867@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        thousands of lines long that take ~30 minutes

        Oh yea!!! Well I have 76 lines of code that takes up to 18 hours to run for 1 client!!!

        /s

        • dan@upvote.au
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          1 year ago

          Haha I only mentioned the run time to provide some context, since a lot of people have only ran OLTP queries that take less than a few seconds to run.

    • XTornado@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Me losing my mind in 3000 lines of Oracle PL/SQL processing scripts in a Bank some time ago agrees with your last statement.

    • Heavybell@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      MS SQL Server has this thing called Replication. It’s a feature to keep tables in sync between databases, and even database servers. There’s merge replication (two way), snapshot replication (one way scheduled publishing), and transaction replication (one way live-ish publishing).

      And the logic is all implemented in T-SQL stored procedures.

      I fucking hate it.

  • Cold_Brew_Enema@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    As a senior query writer, I use caps for begin and end and some other commands, but all caps makes my head hurt. It’s like the sql is screaming at me. I think it’s more important to have good looking queries with proper indentation.

    • BurnerPhone867@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      So much this. Caps for all the things? Hell no! Been a query guy for 19 years now.

      I don’t even use it for Begin and End. and only shift for camelCase names.

  • AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Writing SQL on Mac sucks so bad. I hate their caps lock time out

    • dan@upvote.au
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      1 year ago

      My favourite MySQL error is “MySQL server has gone away”, like MySQL decides “nah I don’t want to run this” and runs off.

      (it happens when no data is sent over the connection for a while, like if the query is taking too long to run and times out)

  • VantaBrandon@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I know a Perl programmer who exclusively writes all SQL in pure lowercase with atypical indentation.

    He’s also a die-hard InfoWars follower, apparently his go to source, so… maybe there is a connection there.

  • Album@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    If you guys think that’s cool you should see what I can do with a double negative.

        • systemglitch@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Yes and no. Correct English does not use a double negative, but when it is used it can either reinforce or convey the opposite… which is why we don’t use double negatives, it’s confusing and language should be clear and precise when used properly.

        • Album@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          In english a double negative is a positive, and is syntactically incorrect.

  • Rev. Layle@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    I never use all caps when I write SQL, not sure why people insist on it so much

    • dan@upvote.au
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      1 year ago

      I write it in lowercase but then the auto-formatter we use at work converts it to uppercase when I save the file.

      I love auto formatters. Prettier (the initial version for JS) really popularized the concept. If the coding style is automated where possible (things like tabs vs spaces, tab width, line wrap at 80/100/120 characters, where to put line breaks in long statements, etc), it ensures the entire codebase is consistent, and I can jump between different code bases with different coding styles without having to think too much about it.

    • dylanTheDeveloper@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I was taught it when working with Oracle SQL (their certification was not cheap and the exam also not easy)

      Personally do what’s easiest if it’s your own database

    • alci@jlai.lu
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      1 year ago

      Was an Oracle thing. Postgresql is rather on the lowercase side of things…

      • Rev. Layle@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        I dunno, I don’t need it to be important, I need it to work and be readable and, to me, all caps is unreadable

  • tentaclius@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Nobody knows (/s) but you don’t have to write keywords in upper case (for most DB’s default settings anyway).

  • attero@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    MAKING SQL QUERIES IN CAPITAL LETTERS MAKES DATABASE TO SENSE URGENCY AND RUN FASTER.