i agree with everything you’ve said including your links between causation etc

except the final link you make that its the consumer, i note you said ‘partly’ a consumer issue, so its not a full attribution - perhaps i’m misinterpreting what % you’re attributing.

tbh my take is alot of people would like an option between paying $2 for a garment they know involved exploitation/slavery vs an accessible¹ independent option that doesn’t cost $500/garment.

i don’t think people are still choosing the $2 option because they’re ok with slavery. but (tragically?) they’re more ok with someone else being the slave vs them being the slave - which is what they’d basically be if every piece of clothing cost them $500.

and i think we know the reason there’s very little accessible options in between is because the game is rigged, you (HelixDab2) can’t realistically enter the game without serious capital behind you (ie. wealth/connections) to reach the volume prices which might give us an option in between - the market isn’t fair, its been stitched up long ago, by the same people who don’t produce anything and greedily skim off the top.

the venn diagram of independent designers fairly charging $500 for their labor and the greedy skimmers getting fat without producing anything themselves is two separate circles - they’re worlds apart

¹ Quick note on accessibility, there are ofc some scant options between $2-500, but what isn’t clear (ie. readily accessible) to the consumer is which of those options isn’t just some greedy bastard buying a $2 option and selling it on for $15.

In other words its not because of the consumers, but because of the greedy skimming off the top.

have you checked out freecad?

for the pricetag ($0) i’m pretty impressed

suggestions should work by default, if by which you mean basic completion of names etc

anyway fair enough, its not for everyone.

sorry for being a bit overly defensive, i just really love geany lol

true, though its fairly easy to use the build interface to setup basic debugging support (breakpoints, watches etc) for unsupported languages. but i admit, its not the same.

you’re right, that’s a fair criticism

these are examples some of some fair criticism of geany

not customizable

themes, plugins, ridiculously easy custom configurations/build commands etc you can even control the window manager from config files if you want to, its insanely customisable

lacks support for a lot of things

edit: trying to sound less snarky, but do you have a lot of examples?

i could see these criticisms arising from a quick glance. or we may have slightly different definitions of these terms. which is fair enough.

imo geany’s ratio of features to weight is remarkable, perhaps singularly so?

if you wanna continue to embarrass yourself go ahead. i won’t be entertaining this sad display any longer.

anyone is free to search the thread and read what i wrote in the full context it was stated.

and to see your blatant dishonesty.

good luck mate, i hope you find some kind of peace to whatever is keeping you so fixated about windows users that you need to fabricate an enemy in me over that aspect, despite me clearly and repeatedly denouncing it from day 1 of this discussion. all the best.

and for the record i don’t think its about ‘inadequacies’. its not a magic skill or secret knowledge. its just about investing the time to learn. put the time in and it will come, as you’ve already seen with your server.

nowhere in this entire essay, nor in any of your other comments for that matter, do you even address my point that lumping in Windows users with the immoral actions of a company results in a harmful dissonance

anyone can see the scrollback for themselves, it’s plainly visible i denounced it multiple times. the evidence is right here for anyone to see:

But then you learn they got rich by cutting corners and screwing over your friends. And are actively investing in making the public pool shit so they can grandstand their pool. Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that

Source

As I mentioned, I’m not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.

Source

As stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice

Source

As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable.

Source

dude its just sad at this point. why are you bothering to pretend its not addressed when its addressed repeatedly and was even requoted like 2 posts before you made your ridiculous, verifiably false statement.

what is the purpose of this game? who do you think you’re kidding? anyone can see you’re being dishonest. and don’t even have the grace to admit it, you’re wrong. completely wasting an opportunity for us both to learn and for us to be friends even.

whats even stranger is the original discussion was about linux community shitting on windows NOT windows users:

The Linux community shitting on Windows is worse

Source

you’ve fixated on this windows user issue when, as quoted, it was never even about that, was already denounced by me immediately as quoted & sourced repeatedly above.

i can see why you think linux users are smug arseholes, you pull this shit and cry when you don’t get away with it. its just sad dude. noone at microsoft is paying for your time to get invested like this. you think you give a fuck about you???

but you know who might actually give a fuck about you? us, here, in this community. but you need to start by being honest with yourself about this, otherwise you are the one making it a waste of time.

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all linux users are smug arseholes because once upon a time some of them hurt my feelings. and even though another linux user repeatedly denounced that and said its unfortunate, i pretended they didn’t because they wouldn’t endlessly cry with me about my hurt feelings and instead talked about actual real world facts, what a horrible group of people

i said i don’t defend it in the very first message i said to you. why isn’t that enough?

you claim i won’t address it when i denounced it in the very first reply i sent to you?!? when i already denounced it, what is there left to say?

Thanks for wasting my time. It seems you have no interest in the facts or learning anything new. You just want to be right, even when discussing a topic you openly admit you know little to nothing about. You freely admit you can’t get linux to work properly, yet suppose to lecture everyone what they are and are not free to discuss about this very same topic you admit you can’t get a handle on. All because your ego got a little bruised

enjoy.

Either we are failing to communicate (because i too have a strong sense you just “want to be right” regardless of the facts), or you’re actually engaging in bad faith discussion.

Since you mentioned you have the same feeling I’ll try to lay it out a bit more.

Its unfortunate you’ve had people ego flex on you over supposed morality. But that doesn’t mean everyone who mentions linux is like that.

Example, I’ve seen people who go up to smokers and evangalise about how smoking is “bad”, and how they’re “hurting society BY hurting themselves with smoking”. Well arguments about second hand smoke aside, I don’t really think that approach is especially helpful. It’s a moral position based on this abstract idea - even if statistically smokers increase our insurance or some shit like that, i doubt many people have the personal experience to say it actually effects them, so it defs comes off as a supposed moral high ground thing, right?

Because some people are going around making that kind of fuss, does mean that EVERYONE who chooses not to smoke is acting out some moral high ground fantasy? Are ALL those who quit smoking “for their health” just morality faking fuckwits? Or are some of them legit worried about their lung health?

For another example, your claim of conflation very much appears to be centred around your misunderstanding of the facts: You’ve had some people flex on your ego, and thats unfortunate. But I don’t think its useful to allow that experience to taint everything else you hear on the topic, and therefore presume you know what someone is saying just because someone else took the same side on the same topic.

The entire premise of traditional digital computing is centred on some key concepts, one of which is defined behaviour. Very clear and strict logical boundaries need to be established for what is defined behaviour. In simple, an operation (eg. adding two numbers), must be deterministic, that is the same two numbers when added must always produce the same resulting number.

Central to another aspect of this is trust. If you cannot trust the outcome of defined behaviour, then the precepts of computing fall apart for a variety of important applications, the behaviour is no longer strictly defined.

I’d hard to overstate how important this is, how much it empowers you as a member of the public, who do not have the resources to hire a team of number crunchers (as companies used to have to do in the old days).

Microsoft have repeatedly shown, they cannot be trusted. They will manipulate and deceive, by design in your computer, with actual code they insert into windows and then knowingly ship.

For these people, this problem matters ALOT, and this isn’t some abstract thing, its not some idealist philosophy to smugly throw around at parties, its a cold electronic fact - something they have to deal with, overcome, often at their own expense. The problem being, that when they ask their computer to perform an operation, their computer might intentionally lie to them about the operation itself, the outcome of the operation, or the integrity of the information going in or out of that operation.

The trust problem between microsoft and the code they insert into windows (running at the highest privilege level on YOUR computer hardware), is absolutely intertwined in the real world, in practice, in a variety of ways. Yes, all threat models involving linux deal with trust problems as well. But when you have a known compromised product from a known bad actor it is simply incorrect to suggest the product and the creator can only be considered in isolation from eachother.

And as you can appreciate you don’t even need to do anything wrong, for these kind of user-hostile features to be used against you, even in ways not intended by those who put them there - which is a whole other issue.

I could go on & on as this is really just touching the surface, but I hope you can begin to appreciate it’s not even remotely close to a conflation, this is not some guilt by association abstract nonsense, this is deeply and painfully practical. i really hope you can at least get a glimpse of it for yourself now.

I don’t know how you can be so involved on the subject and not understand this.

In the first statement i made to you directly was the following:

Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that

From which I cannot fathom how you think I lack an appreciation that some people do blame others for such choices, or that I’m somehow having a conversation about those kinds of people…at all? Let alone their perceived moral high ground or lack thereof?

My entire thread has been about us having the freedom to express our reasons for avoiding it. If you’re not contesting the legitimacy of that freedom, them why are you continually attempting to invalidate my position, at all?

Tbh I’m entirely unconvinced by your claim that any participation in “capitalistic evil” immediately invalidates all subsequent discernment of shades of evil or the complex interactions thereof.

But frankly its entirely irrelevant to this thread, unless you believe it supports a position that we do not have the freedom to voice our own reasons for our own choices?

As I mentioned, I’m not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.

What I am here to defend is our freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing to avoid it as much as possible.

Therefore, it’s unclear to me exactly which stance you are taking in reference to what i said.

Our position is there are at least two core topics for why we choose not go there. They are 1. issues with the product and 2. issues with the company.

With the pool analogy the corner cutting and then further elucidation regarding the escalation of user-hostile features, are both specific criticisms with the windows software itself. Not the company.

Regarding issues with the company, as stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice but rather listing the reasons why we make our choice as we do.

Therefore, it is unclear exactly which position you are taking which is contrary to this? Everyone will have a different moral line for the myriad of issues when dealing with evil companies and their products/services. Do you wish to tell others where they choose to draw their own lines for their own lives are incorrect? I doubt that’s really the stance you intended to make, so what do you mean, then?

Finally, I’m not sure how much of the history you’re aware of, but microsoft’s open hostility to linux devs & users is extensive and bitter. We have the case of a billion dollar company, actively trying to spoil & ruin the harmless pleasure many people take in a wonderful piece of technology.

This is almost entirely unlike any other “us vs them” technology debate. In nearly every other case, its wealthy corporation vs wealthy corporation with the users caught in the middle. In this case it is literally freedom of the people vs corporate profits. That freedom being actually incredibly important: its not only about the harmless enjoyment of the community. But also, considering the tech trajectory our society is on, very likely serving a critical role for actual human rights today and tomorrow.

As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable. But it would really be alot healthier if people take the time to appreciate the breadth of the problem, and perhaps better appreciate why we make our choices the way we do.

OR considering that may involve more effort than you have time for - fair enough - at least appreciate this is a topic some of the people who clearly have looked into it, might know some things about it you haven’t had time to learn yet.

why is that? it’s not punching down when its a billion dollar company

I’ll bite, I down voted you because I think you’re missing the point of what the above commenters are talking about. It’s not about whether it’s punching down/up to criticize Microsoft.

It literally started with a question.

why is that?

As yet noone has even answered that question.

Why is it worse? You’ve gone to the trouble to downvote, and reply, yet still haven’t answered the question.

Tbh most partisan camp debates in technology are pretty tiresome: ios vs android, playstation vs xbox. They all have pros and cons.

(Even linux and windows both have their pros and cons.)

That said, there’s a huge difference between comparing two commercial products both from competing companies vs a powerful open source tool, with almost limitless potential. Virtually ANY complaint you have about linux CAN be fixed by the public, even YOU if you put in the appropriate effort/resources.

The fact that you can freely boot into modern hardware with something offering that kind of power & freedom openly to the public is frankly incredible.

So tbh it’s pretty difficult to see why it is worse.

it’s hardly a conflation, this hostile modus operandi is baked into the windows product itself with malicious and intrusive features. i’m not sure if this is news to anyone, but those user-hostile features were added to windows by microsoft. and the best defense offered thus far for that is basically “most or all tech giants do it too” - yes, thankyou that’s exactly our point. the fact that shipping this kind of abusive software has been normalised is part of the problem too.

i agree in as much as not everything about windows is bad. and it can be useful sometimes out of necessity. though its worth remembering that necessity may often be the result of hostility on microsoft’s part, either past or present. so it’s not really possible to have an honest conversation about what windows is, without an awareness of how microsoft has maliciously managed our perception of desktop operating systems in general. happy to explain what i mean by this in more detail if anyone’s interested.

and also agreed, i’d never pay for it.

Microsoft is like the rich guy with the nice pool. Its looks nice. But then you learn they got rich by cutting corners and screwing over your friends. And are actively investing in making the public pool shit so they can grandstand their pool.

Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that

But I equally believe it is right and fair for us to have the freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing not to go up there.