the significant strategic importance of Israel to the US and other Western nations, which is the actual reason
Yes, I agree with this. I said “one reason” when I started my message; this is the other reason. Honestly, that side of it, I don’t care about in the slightest. The US has a lot of friends and a lot of strategic partners. If one of them starts killing children in large numbers, I think it’s reasonable to reevaluate if the strategic geopolitical gains are the diplomatic losses (not to mention the going to Hell for at the end of our lives.)
Most of what you’re saying factually about the conflict, I actually fully agree with. A think a whole lot of your statements of judgement could be viewed in absolute exact mirror image from the opposite side, though.
how is (country) to respond?
do they have the right to defend themselves?
How do you fight an enemy like this?
Are Palestinians allowed to say these things about Israel?
Why not?
I could send you any number of videos or news stories about IDF soldiers killing children or people who are obviously innocent, equally fucked-up stories to match your (very real) fucked-up stories about what Hamas is doing. Do you want me to do that; do you not believe that these things are happening? I can send you reliable sources if you want; what’s reliable to you? New York Times, Wikipedia, Haaretz or Israeli media? That’s a for real serious question. Do you not believe that the IDF is doing atrocities? What source would you believe? UN reports?
(I believe, I should say, that the answer is no: Palestinians should not be able to justify anything they do to innocent Israelis in these terms. I just think it cuts both ways: No murder and rape at the music festival, no starvation of children. Surely you can see that both of those are punishment of the innocent for “crimes” committed by others that they may not agree with or be in any way responsible for? Or no?)
Lack of food to a civilian population is abhorrent by any standard. Don’t give me crap about how Hamas is hoarding the aid. Hamas is a profoundly corrupt organization and always has been. The people who weren’t starving before, and now are, are doing so because Israel is blocking the aid. These are the numbers; there is not enough to feed everyone. That’s Israel’s decision and the consequences of it are on the Israeli government.
Would that situation be alright for the United States to impose on Israel to redress an injustice the Israeli leadership and military had committed? A yearslong embargo like the one on Gaza, and then sudden reduction of food aid (which the population was now dependent on) to a small fraction, even as famine and starvation set in? Even to the extent of starving people who never agreed with Netanyahu’s policies, or people too young to even understand what was happening?
If you claim the right for Israel to do these things to Gaza, why would the Palestinians or the Americans not have the right to do this to Israelis? What’s the difference?
You agree with that factually, right? The 6/6 map showing the present day?
Surely you can see the problem with moving into someone else’s house, telling them at gunpoint they need to find a new place to live, telling them they can’t leave their new place they live now without your permission (which basically never comes), telling them you’ll control how much food and water and any type of goods they can receive and then say you’re “wanting peace”? No? Is that reasonable, is a settled peace enforced by overwhelming atrocity at any resistance, visited on both the guilty and the innocent; is that the reasonable outcome from that situation?
Yes, I agree with this. I said “one reason” when I started my message; this is the other reason. Honestly, that side of it, I don’t care about in the slightest. The US has a lot of friends and a lot of strategic partners. If one of them starts killing children in large numbers, I think it’s reasonable to reevaluate if the strategic geopolitical gains are the diplomatic losses (not to mention the going to Hell for at the end of our lives.)
Most of what you’re saying factually about the conflict, I actually fully agree with. A think a whole lot of your statements of judgement could be viewed in absolute exact mirror image from the opposite side, though.
Are Palestinians allowed to say these things about Israel?
Why not?
I could send you any number of videos or news stories about IDF soldiers killing children or people who are obviously innocent, equally fucked-up stories to match your (very real) fucked-up stories about what Hamas is doing. Do you want me to do that; do you not believe that these things are happening? I can send you reliable sources if you want; what’s reliable to you? New York Times, Wikipedia, Haaretz or Israeli media? That’s a for real serious question. Do you not believe that the IDF is doing atrocities? What source would you believe? UN reports?
(I believe, I should say, that the answer is no: Palestinians should not be able to justify anything they do to innocent Israelis in these terms. I just think it cuts both ways: No murder and rape at the music festival, no starvation of children. Surely you can see that both of those are punishment of the innocent for “crimes” committed by others that they may not agree with or be in any way responsible for? Or no?)
Lack of food to a civilian population is abhorrent by any standard. Don’t give me crap about how Hamas is hoarding the aid. Hamas is a profoundly corrupt organization and always has been. The people who weren’t starving before, and now are, are doing so because Israel is blocking the aid. These are the numbers; there is not enough to feed everyone. That’s Israel’s decision and the consequences of it are on the Israeli government.
Would that situation be alright for the United States to impose on Israel to redress an injustice the Israeli leadership and military had committed? A yearslong embargo like the one on Gaza, and then sudden reduction of food aid (which the population was now dependent on) to a small fraction, even as famine and starvation set in? Even to the extent of starving people who never agreed with Netanyahu’s policies, or people too young to even understand what was happening?
If you claim the right for Israel to do these things to Gaza, why would the Palestinians or the Americans not have the right to do this to Israelis? What’s the difference?
I want you to take a look at this map:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestine-gaza-west-bank-borders/
You agree with that factually, right? The 6/6 map showing the present day?
Surely you can see the problem with moving into someone else’s house, telling them at gunpoint they need to find a new place to live, telling them they can’t leave their new place they live now without your permission (which basically never comes), telling them you’ll control how much food and water and any type of goods they can receive and then say you’re “wanting peace”? No? Is that reasonable, is a settled peace enforced by overwhelming atrocity at any resistance, visited on both the guilty and the innocent; is that the reasonable outcome from that situation?