Because it’s incredibly transphobic? Can you not understand how an oppressed group might be more depressed or suicidal while still not being inherently wrong or broken because of how society treats them?
I kind of get you have frustrations with the social model of disability because of how some people use it. You maybe need to look into things like the holistic model of disability. That’s all fairly reasonable until now. Your last comment I am replying to is taking the piss. It reeks of not understanding how privilege and oppression in general works as well as transphobia specifically.
Well, Tbf I do see the obvious correlation between oppression and depression. So that was a poor choice of fact to try to demonstrate any point.
And maybe I’m kinda “taking a piss” with the last comment, because I leave it to be interpreted widely.
Disability and disorder are clearly complex topics, but I also think I can believe that ADHD and Transexuality are flaws in the human genome, and I feel I can hold that thought without being transphobic. We’re all still people, living the lives we were given, trying to make the most of it.
Where accommodations can exist, they should, we should allow people to transition sex, and augment their brain with drugs in order to live a life they feel happier about.
The social cost for accommodating trans is simply recognizing peoples preferred pronouns, and not being hateful or doing anything to impede their life.
To accommodate ADHD is to re-architect much of society altogether. Conversation norms, collaboration expectations, methods of instruction/education, public transit needing to be much better (cuz ADHDers are much more likely to get into crashes and many shouldn’t drive un-medicated) etc etc etc
So in that regard I guess I’d say that while I see both as broken, or at least disfuntional, though ADHD much more so socially, and trans more individually impeded (as of yet, no natural conception, must take hormone supplements, etc).
Trust that I at very least have a lifetime, well part of one, of experience with oppression and lack of privilege as the only people with a “heritage” but not a race to our own (in the US) and as a person w ADHD, and as lower class.
I could probably do with some more theoretical knowledge on the topic though. I’ll look into the holistic model.
-written on my phone bc I can’t be bothered to grab my laptop, but also this makes it harder to proofread, re-read context, and generally form responses at the best of my capabilities. This and many responses may or may not come from a medicated version of me, and as a result may have significantly more or less care put into their crafting. And idk, other ADHD related disclaimers. Accommodate me, bitch. Jk, kinda.
I don’t which reality you are from but I don’t think society or many of the neurotypicals that inhabit it are actually functional in the reality I come from. To me the whole system is broken to varying degrees for everyone and is perpetuated by broken people. I know you have said before that you don’t think NTs are broken, I disagree. I think anyone who is complicit in our current world must be broken in some sense. We only accept the sometimes rather transparent flaws of NT people only because they are the majority.
Lots of accomodations that help ND people would also help some or all NTs as well. It’s the same as how adding lifts and ramps for disabled people also helps the elderly, or people who are moving goods on a trolley. NT people have off days too and I think they could use some leniancy. I also think that rather than try to create one method of education and socialising that works for everyone we should have different options available for different people. We should meet people where they are rather than trying to build a compromised system and bend people to fit that system. This is why I believe we should have a neurodivergent culture/subculture like we have for LGBTQ+ people with things like gay bars. I wouldn’t even be against setting up entire societies or countries for various oppressed groups including the neurodivergent, LGBTQ, and physically disabled the same way we setup Israel for Jews (only this time without committing genocide against Palestine). Unfortunately society just isn’t setup that way under Kyriarchy.
As for medication: ADHD drugs are essentially performance enhancers. I am a druggie at heart so I have no issue with people NT or ND doing drugs to increase their performance or for recreation. I do have a problem with people being coerced into doing drugs just because it makes them behave more like an average or “normal” person.
I can understand and agree with everything you said, to varying degrees, especially as I see the bigger world-view of it… up until
I do have a problem with people being coerced into doing drugs just because it makes them behave more like an average or “normal” person.
I know you’re not saying every person who takes drugs does so because they were coerced, or because they are trying to be ‘normal’, but it is how I first read it… and it is how many of those with similar views to yours feel. Which kind ties back to a comment I made elsewhere in this post a couple of days ago, that the “ND people are just different” ideology frequently comes bundled with a negative view of those of us who do want to take drugs and do things to be more functional.
You may think the world needs to change, but without my meds I can sit here feeling like a lazy asshole for not helping my wife clean, while still feeling utterly unable to will myself to get up and help. I’m not always that way without medication, but with medication, I spent this morning having interesting conversations on Lemmy, taking periodic breaks to clean up the apartment bit by bit before my wife even wakes up. And I feel good, I’m doing some of the same old shit I usually do, though maybe a bit more verbose and not being quite as rude or as presumptuous as I’d normally be. Without my meds, this conversation probably would have ended long ago. But, instead I feel like I’m having a interesting and slightly productive convo while getting some productivity in around the house.
Now you may say you don’t fault me for wanting meds, but maybe that is still your initial prejudice against med users, and even if not… I’m highly confident that it is the case for many who espouse these ideas.
Even if you convinced me to your side, and I stopped taking my meds, well… I’d probably never do a single thing to advance the ideology… Because my meds allow me the persistence to keep focused on a task. Otherwise, its Lemmy -> Torrenting -> Researching that phone issue I’m having -> Cleaning (probably not actually) -> reorganizing my desk, half way at best -> thinking about applying for jobs, but just feeling overwhelmed and inept, and not actually applying to anything -> settling into watch tv while I pull up lemmy, and show review sites, torrents, researching a new phone… and that’d be my whole day. Literally.
Maybe I just lack the imagination, or hope to even attempt to imagine a world in which the above is perfectly fine and 5% of the population can just do that all day. Maybe if it was more socially acceptable for that to be the entire itinerary for my day, then I wouldn’t feel so bad about it. But I think I really do want to get a job where I can put my knowledge to use, to be able to contribute equitably to house work and household earnings, and work on longer term personal projects. Despite some clear evidence that I can code quite well, have quite an aptitude for it, I’ve never worked on a personal project that took longer than 12 hours.
If thats longer than my other comments, its because I switched to my laptop where I am able to stream-of-consciousness much more effectively.
See I have a rather different experience because I have never had meds. I still managed to get a master degree and apply for jobs. The issue I have in my life is that despite applying for many jobs (okay probably less than a more motivated person) I still don’t get anything. Why? I don’t know. I doubt it’s something I have done given I don’t even get replies to most of them, so it’s not like I have interview problems. In this case it’s unrealistic expectations put upon graduates looking for jobs especially with regards to experience. How can you have 1+years of industry experience when you have only just graduated and no one is willing to take a chance? I think others get around this by applying very early while still in University. You could argue that my neurodivergence prevented me from applying while busy doing my dissertation, but I don’t think every NT person could have done that either. The bigger issue is that this barrier exists in the first place when it something everone has to clear. Sorry for the rant, it’s been a very frustrating time.
I can relate to the understanding of feeling broken and I am glad you have something that helps at least a little bit. The issue is I don’t think medication alone is the anwser, if it was you would already have a job. I think if a society wants you to be productive it needs to organize itself and give you work suitable for you’re talents rather than expecting people to find work that may not even be avalible. I think labour needs to be more organised to better take advantage of the skills of different people.
I generally think that the same medications that allow ADHD people to be more productive also helps NT people be more productive. That’s why college students and the army use these medications. It’s the same effect just in a different context. I am aware there are people that stimulants do impact differently, but from my understanding it’s more about calming them down rather than giving them energy and executive funtion to get through various tasks. I could be very wrong here as I don’t have the experience as I have never been prescibred psychiatric medications. What I know about these things is through similar recreational substances or through listening to others
Edit: also I should point out that some of the things I tried recreationally also ended up improving my productivity and we’re later used for that perpose. Kratom in particular comes to mind. You may find it helpful though it has more risks than some people want to acknowledge. In the vain of treating symptoms MDMA has been tested for treating social anxiety in autistic people and I think it may have heled me understand other people a bit better but it’s kind of hard to tell because lots of things were changing for me in that time of my life.
But on that specific issue of getting experience before graduation, yeah, it’s a dumb situation. It’s giving me trouble getting a CS job, but I’m interviewing for a Sys Admin job bc I’m experienced in that, and this particular employer also likes that I have a CS degree bc they’re a software company.
I was looking for coding, sysadmin, or even cyber security and still didn’t get anything. I am now looking more broadly into technician roles and computer repair as I think they might be easier to apply to. I have already cast the net wider than most yet people have told me to look more broadly (as if I didn’t already do that lol). I am glad to here from someone I can actually relate to. I am even looking at jobs in the brewing industry as I have a special interest/hyperfixation in that area.
I’m new to the meds, as still tuning my regiment, but as is I do have an interview to look forward to. Which is way ahead of where I was a couple of months ago.
Also, medication do not have the same effect on NT as they do on ND, specifically stimulants and ADHDers. That’s a myth, backed up by research, lots of it. If you enjoy acquiring knowledge through videos, like I do, you may want to check out lectures, or the shorter videos by Dr Russell Barkley, arguably the world’s foremost expert on the topic of ADHD.
How can a myth be backed up by lots of research? I am confused what you mean here.
I am also not claiming that they have the exact same effect on all people. Rather that they do improve productivity in many circumstances for both groups of people (NT and ND). Also neurodivergent people are not a single block and neither are neurotypicals. Not all ADHD or autistic people will respond the same way to stimulants. Not even one the same person is effected the same way by the same drug every single time. One of the lessons taught in the psychonaut community is that drugs can effect you differently depending on many factors including you’re mindset, the dosage, the exact substance, and what condition you’re body is in (set and setting is the simplified version of this). I have experienced the stimulant inversion you are talking about but it’s not very consistent. It’s basically tossing a coin what effect I will have for a certain stimulant every time I take it; this is part of why I don’t do that particular substance often. It could also be a dosage dependant phenomena.
I have looked at a couple Russell Barkley videos. I haven’t found anything on how ADHD people respond differently to stimulants than people of any other neurotype. Could you point me in the right direction?
You could say the same thing about trans people but you wouldn’t call that “being broken”.
Why wouldn’t I?
Because it’s incredibly transphobic? Can you not understand how an oppressed group might be more depressed or suicidal while still not being inherently wrong or broken because of how society treats them?
I kind of get you have frustrations with the social model of disability because of how some people use it. You maybe need to look into things like the holistic model of disability. That’s all fairly reasonable until now. Your last comment I am replying to is taking the piss. It reeks of not understanding how privilege and oppression in general works as well as transphobia specifically.
Well, Tbf I do see the obvious correlation between oppression and depression. So that was a poor choice of fact to try to demonstrate any point.
And maybe I’m kinda “taking a piss” with the last comment, because I leave it to be interpreted widely.
Disability and disorder are clearly complex topics, but I also think I can believe that ADHD and Transexuality are flaws in the human genome, and I feel I can hold that thought without being transphobic. We’re all still people, living the lives we were given, trying to make the most of it.
Where accommodations can exist, they should, we should allow people to transition sex, and augment their brain with drugs in order to live a life they feel happier about.
The social cost for accommodating trans is simply recognizing peoples preferred pronouns, and not being hateful or doing anything to impede their life.
To accommodate ADHD is to re-architect much of society altogether. Conversation norms, collaboration expectations, methods of instruction/education, public transit needing to be much better (cuz ADHDers are much more likely to get into crashes and many shouldn’t drive un-medicated) etc etc etc
So in that regard I guess I’d say that while I see both as broken, or at least disfuntional, though ADHD much more so socially, and trans more individually impeded (as of yet, no natural conception, must take hormone supplements, etc).
Trust that I at very least have a lifetime, well part of one, of experience with oppression and lack of privilege as the only people with a “heritage” but not a race to our own (in the US) and as a person w ADHD, and as lower class.
I could probably do with some more theoretical knowledge on the topic though. I’ll look into the holistic model.
-written on my phone bc I can’t be bothered to grab my laptop, but also this makes it harder to proofread, re-read context, and generally form responses at the best of my capabilities. This and many responses may or may not come from a medicated version of me, and as a result may have significantly more or less care put into their crafting. And idk, other ADHD related disclaimers. Accommodate me, bitch. Jk, kinda.
I don’t which reality you are from but I don’t think society or many of the neurotypicals that inhabit it are actually functional in the reality I come from. To me the whole system is broken to varying degrees for everyone and is perpetuated by broken people. I know you have said before that you don’t think NTs are broken, I disagree. I think anyone who is complicit in our current world must be broken in some sense. We only accept the sometimes rather transparent flaws of NT people only because they are the majority.
Lots of accomodations that help ND people would also help some or all NTs as well. It’s the same as how adding lifts and ramps for disabled people also helps the elderly, or people who are moving goods on a trolley. NT people have off days too and I think they could use some leniancy. I also think that rather than try to create one method of education and socialising that works for everyone we should have different options available for different people. We should meet people where they are rather than trying to build a compromised system and bend people to fit that system. This is why I believe we should have a neurodivergent culture/subculture like we have for LGBTQ+ people with things like gay bars. I wouldn’t even be against setting up entire societies or countries for various oppressed groups including the neurodivergent, LGBTQ, and physically disabled the same way we setup Israel for Jews (only this time without committing genocide against Palestine). Unfortunately society just isn’t setup that way under Kyriarchy.
As for medication: ADHD drugs are essentially performance enhancers. I am a druggie at heart so I have no issue with people NT or ND doing drugs to increase their performance or for recreation. I do have a problem with people being coerced into doing drugs just because it makes them behave more like an average or “normal” person.
I can understand and agree with everything you said, to varying degrees, especially as I see the bigger world-view of it… up until
I know you’re not saying every person who takes drugs does so because they were coerced, or because they are trying to be ‘normal’, but it is how I first read it… and it is how many of those with similar views to yours feel. Which kind ties back to a comment I made elsewhere in this post a couple of days ago, that the “ND people are just different” ideology frequently comes bundled with a negative view of those of us who do want to take drugs and do things to be more functional.
You may think the world needs to change, but without my meds I can sit here feeling like a lazy asshole for not helping my wife clean, while still feeling utterly unable to will myself to get up and help. I’m not always that way without medication, but with medication, I spent this morning having interesting conversations on Lemmy, taking periodic breaks to clean up the apartment bit by bit before my wife even wakes up. And I feel good, I’m doing some of the same old shit I usually do, though maybe a bit more verbose and not being quite as rude or as presumptuous as I’d normally be. Without my meds, this conversation probably would have ended long ago. But, instead I feel like I’m having a interesting and slightly productive convo while getting some productivity in around the house.
Now you may say you don’t fault me for wanting meds, but maybe that is still your initial prejudice against med users, and even if not… I’m highly confident that it is the case for many who espouse these ideas.
Even if you convinced me to your side, and I stopped taking my meds, well… I’d probably never do a single thing to advance the ideology… Because my meds allow me the persistence to keep focused on a task. Otherwise, its Lemmy -> Torrenting -> Researching that phone issue I’m having ->
Cleaning(probably not actually) -> reorganizing my desk, half way at best -> thinking about applying for jobs, but just feeling overwhelmed and inept, and not actually applying to anything -> settling into watch tv while I pull up lemmy, and show review sites, torrents, researching a new phone… and that’d be my whole day. Literally.Maybe I just lack the imagination, or hope to even attempt to imagine a world in which the above is perfectly fine and 5% of the population can just do that all day. Maybe if it was more socially acceptable for that to be the entire itinerary for my day, then I wouldn’t feel so bad about it. But I think I really do want to get a job where I can put my knowledge to use, to be able to contribute equitably to house work and household earnings, and work on longer term personal projects. Despite some clear evidence that I can code quite well, have quite an aptitude for it, I’ve never worked on a personal project that took longer than 12 hours.
If thats longer than my other comments, its because I switched to my laptop where I am able to stream-of-consciousness much more effectively.
See I have a rather different experience because I have never had meds. I still managed to get a master degree and apply for jobs. The issue I have in my life is that despite applying for many jobs (okay probably less than a more motivated person) I still don’t get anything. Why? I don’t know. I doubt it’s something I have done given I don’t even get replies to most of them, so it’s not like I have interview problems. In this case it’s unrealistic expectations put upon graduates looking for jobs especially with regards to experience. How can you have 1+years of industry experience when you have only just graduated and no one is willing to take a chance? I think others get around this by applying very early while still in University. You could argue that my neurodivergence prevented me from applying while busy doing my dissertation, but I don’t think every NT person could have done that either. The bigger issue is that this barrier exists in the first place when it something everone has to clear. Sorry for the rant, it’s been a very frustrating time.
I can relate to the understanding of feeling broken and I am glad you have something that helps at least a little bit. The issue is I don’t think medication alone is the anwser, if it was you would already have a job. I think if a society wants you to be productive it needs to organize itself and give you work suitable for you’re talents rather than expecting people to find work that may not even be avalible. I think labour needs to be more organised to better take advantage of the skills of different people.
I generally think that the same medications that allow ADHD people to be more productive also helps NT people be more productive. That’s why college students and the army use these medications. It’s the same effect just in a different context. I am aware there are people that stimulants do impact differently, but from my understanding it’s more about calming them down rather than giving them energy and executive funtion to get through various tasks. I could be very wrong here as I don’t have the experience as I have never been prescibred psychiatric medications. What I know about these things is through similar recreational substances or through listening to others
Edit: also I should point out that some of the things I tried recreationally also ended up improving my productivity and we’re later used for that perpose. Kratom in particular comes to mind. You may find it helpful though it has more risks than some people want to acknowledge. In the vain of treating symptoms MDMA has been tested for treating social anxiety in autistic people and I think it may have heled me understand other people a bit better but it’s kind of hard to tell because lots of things were changing for me in that time of my life.
But on that specific issue of getting experience before graduation, yeah, it’s a dumb situation. It’s giving me trouble getting a CS job, but I’m interviewing for a Sys Admin job bc I’m experienced in that, and this particular employer also likes that I have a CS degree bc they’re a software company.
I was looking for coding, sysadmin, or even cyber security and still didn’t get anything. I am now looking more broadly into technician roles and computer repair as I think they might be easier to apply to. I have already cast the net wider than most yet people have told me to look more broadly (as if I didn’t already do that lol). I am glad to here from someone I can actually relate to. I am even looking at jobs in the brewing industry as I have a special interest/hyperfixation in that area.
I’m new to the meds, as still tuning my regiment, but as is I do have an interview to look forward to. Which is way ahead of where I was a couple of months ago.
Also, medication do not have the same effect on NT as they do on ND, specifically stimulants and ADHDers. That’s a myth, backed up by research, lots of it. If you enjoy acquiring knowledge through videos, like I do, you may want to check out lectures, or the shorter videos by Dr Russell Barkley, arguably the world’s foremost expert on the topic of ADHD.
How can a myth be backed up by lots of research? I am confused what you mean here.
I am also not claiming that they have the exact same effect on all people. Rather that they do improve productivity in many circumstances for both groups of people (NT and ND). Also neurodivergent people are not a single block and neither are neurotypicals. Not all ADHD or autistic people will respond the same way to stimulants. Not even one the same person is effected the same way by the same drug every single time. One of the lessons taught in the psychonaut community is that drugs can effect you differently depending on many factors including you’re mindset, the dosage, the exact substance, and what condition you’re body is in (set and setting is the simplified version of this). I have experienced the stimulant inversion you are talking about but it’s not very consistent. It’s basically tossing a coin what effect I will have for a certain stimulant every time I take it; this is part of why I don’t do that particular substance often. It could also be a dosage dependant phenomena.
I have looked at a couple Russell Barkley videos. I haven’t found anything on how ADHD people respond differently to stimulants than people of any other neurotype. Could you point me in the right direction?