In TNG, Picard says that the Federation has evolved past a need for money. Indeed, we never see any.

In DS9 though, Quark talks a lot about bar tabs and costs. Surely Oā€™Brien and Bashir donā€™t get free drinks, so how do they pay? Iā€™d assume that any Ferengi worth his lobes wonā€™t accept anything that can be replicated, so do Federation officers get a stipend of tradeable ā€œvalueā€ when interacting with cultures that still expect payment?

I think thereā€™s also a reference to Quark paying rent to Sisko for running the bar. Presumably thatā€™s denominated in latinum. I wonder where it goes? Maybe the secret ā€œGarak black opsā€ fund.

  • TheAgeOfSuperboredom@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    I think the officers do get some form of stipend. I canā€™t recall if this was mentioned directly in the show though.

    Do we know if any Federation members use money?

    • Dharma Curious@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      To my knowledge the federation is completely post monetary. But, we do see individual people who in it that use money. Riker mentioned a few times owing debts or being owed debts from card games and the like, iirc. I think itā€™s largely a personal choice, as money is unnecessary in their society. Nothing that matters has a monetary cost, like shelter, food, etc. And luxuries within the federation itself seem to also be free at the point of use, but I think there is some kind of credit system in use. Sisko mentions using up a months worth of transporter credits to come home for dinner during his time at the academy, if Iā€™m remembering right.

      Given the whole schtick of being a post capitalist, but not quite fully communist, society that the franchise has, combined with my personal knowledge of various socialist ideas around transitionary societies, my best guess is that they function off a form of labor voucher. Non transferable credits to be used for whatever goods are restricted or scarce. But with some kind of loophole around the transferability when it comes to dealing with non federation members who still use money.

      • holothuroid@rollenspiel.social
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        1 year ago

        @DharmaCurious

        Bolarus has an operational bank (which Morn robbed) and Crusher pasys with Federation Credits in Mission Farpoint.

        Also note that itā€™s called New Earth Economy. Itā€™s earth that has no money.

        • Dharma Curious@startrek.website
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          1 year ago

          Is bolarus federation? Iā€™m not great at knowing which planets are and arenā€™t. The federation credits beverly uses at far point could still be in line with my labor voucher theory, but I think youā€™re right about it being earth, not the federation, thatā€™s entirely post monetary. Now that you mention that, Iā€™ve seen episodes where they say you have to be a unified planet to join the federation, no caste system, etc. But never have they mentioned on screen you have to be post monetary. Also, as up thread it was mentioned, quark is paying rent on a bajoran station, so probably bajor has money, and they were all set to join on a few occasions, so yeah. Youā€™re right. The moneyless folks are Earthicans, not federation members.

      • DrChaotica@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        Iā€™m very unclear on what exactly makes ā€œtransporter creditsā€ or ā€œlabor vouchersā€ different from ā€œmoney.ā€

        • Dharma Curious@startrek.website
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          1 year ago

          Edit: I am sorry for this wall of text. I understand if you donā€™t read it. Lolā€¦I have COVID right now, and for someone reason Iā€™m either wired like a coke head, or exhausted like a coke head on Monday. You caught me wired.

          Transporter credits I canā€™t speak to, but labor vouchers are something that has been tried in limited fashion in the past.

          Basically, the idea is that they are not accunulatable by anyone but the person doing labor to earn them.

          Letā€™s say you work, doing some kind of worky type work. You earn 1 labor voucher per hour. You live in a society in which housing, electricity, water, transportations, and food are free at the point of use. Your labor voucher provides proof that you are, indeed, laboring. You have your eye on a nice luxury item or an item that is genuinely scarce and not strictly necessary for life, and thus not provided free to everyone (I have COVID right now, and canā€™t think of an example. Game system? Arenā€™t computers made with rare elements? See footnote). You could spend your labor vouchers for this item. Letā€™s say it costs 20 labor vouchers. You work 20 hours, give the shopkeep those 20 vouchers. The vouchers arenā€™t money, though. Theyā€™re either digital credits, or little pieces of paper with ā€œDrChaoticaā€™s proof of laborā€ on it. The shopkeep would be unable to spend them anywhere, as she is not DrChaotica. They are either destroyed outright, or given back to the local governing body to be re-given to you upon completion of more laboring.

          Itā€™s an idea for socialism by people who are socialist, and also think weā€™d have the whole bUt nObOdY WiLl WoRk problem. We incentivize work through the voucher system, while preventing the accumulation of wealth by making them non transferable and no accunulatable by anyone other than the worker. In theory, you could be ā€œrich,ā€ but only by working a shit ton, and your wealth couldnā€™t come at the expense of making someone else poor. You wouldnā€™t be able to extract the value of other workers, and you wouldnā€™t be able to hoarde mass amounts of wealth, only modest wealth, as youā€™d have to be doing the work yourself.

          Footnote:

          So, among socialists, this is still a fairly controversial topic. Labor vouchers are often seen as a way of preventing the Socialist Billionaire problem that China faces, while also preventing the common critique thrown at left wing communists and anarchists, that none would actively work in their communities, especially in less hobby-like jobs like wood working or fuggin sculpting or whatever. No one wants to be a plumber after the glorious revolution. This allows for the community to have things that are entirely free, and provide a base level of life that is pretty high, while also ensuring that things get done, and no one is rigging the system in their favor. Itā€™s not a system supported by all socialists, and itā€™s not always clear which group would or would not support that type of system.

          Footnote the second, because COVID brain and I couldnā€™t figure out where else to slot it in. Labor vouchers could also be used on food, depending on the system. A ration system is often a scary concept, because people think the ration is the most the food you can have. But thereā€™s also the type of rationing where the ration is the minimum amount of food anyone can have. You are provided with a base level of calories, staple items, and whatever is locally produced. You will always have access to that, and will never go hungry. But letā€™s say your community is trying to increase the amount of plant based food and decrease animal farming. Dairy may be on the ration, but meat is not. Labor vouchers could be used to buy meat, increasing the number of people willing to do work for the vouchers, while decreasing the amount of meat produced, and simultaneously ensuring no one goes hungry, and no one is forced to go veg if they donā€™t want to.